The Racial Divide

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

I don't know. It's a good question: how broad and sweeping the gulf? So long as we have drastic differences in such measures as income and incarceration rates, I suppose the chasm would have to remain fairly wide, even if you do have a more racially diverse mix at the top of the social order.

Comments

[not-hothead-yet.livejournal.com]

I think whenever you're talking about a chasm between two entities, its a very subjective thing. The problem is when one side believes the chasm to be smaller than the other side believes. It takes two for true communication so if one side feels estranged, then all the belief in the world isn't going to change that. This is the essential truth behind "disenfranchisement"

I know this all too sharply right now because of personal reasons.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

It is also noteworthy to consider when it is the dominant side that believes the chasm is narrow and it is the downtrodden side that believes the chasm is wide.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

It's also noteworthy to consider the benefits each side can get for claiming the gulf is wider or smaller than it actually is.

[goumindong.livejournal.com]

Whites believed the chasm was small in the 1950's too.

[dexeron.livejournal.com]

If perception, or rather, experience is reality, then who is to say "how it really exists?"

If Al Sharpton's experience with the chasm has been the bottom picture, than FOR HIM, the chasm is as he portrays it, because ultimately the reality of the chasm is what people actually experience.

I'm not actually saying Sharpton's description is correct, nor that is incorrect. I'll use an analogy to make the point I'm trying to make:

There's been a reported problem with the harrassment of women at secular and skeptic conventions for years. Many women have complained. One woman never experienced this harrassment, and said: "I've never experienced this. You must be exaggerating, or making it up, or overreacting."

Who is correct? The woman saying "it's no big deal" is describing the chasm that SHE has experienced. The other women are describing a chasm that THEY have experienced. Both experiences are valid and factual - but they problem is when someone tries to use their own "chasm experience" to diminish or deny the existance of someone else's chasm.

In other words, the chasm might be different for different people, because we all have different experiences and advantages and disadvantages and surroundings... some have bridges or tightropes or nothing, and for some it's a small hop and for others maybe a gigantic gap. Where we run into problems is when those who have almost no gap, with a gigantic bridge with handrails and a monorail, turn to others and say: "The gap doesn't look so bad to me. I don't know why you're making such a big deal!" while those people are forced to try to Nik Wallenda over the tightrope that's the only way across THEIR massive, gaping chasm.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

True, but can't we step back and get a better idea of what's going on? When it comes to race, we are certainly no longer talking about the absolutist, black and white world of the 19th century, and it is true that we have a significant representation of non-whites in the middle class and upper classes, not to mention a black president of the United States (which still trips me out a little, for I didn't think I would see this in my lifetime). I just think that seeing the success of non-whites in the top-half of the social order can distract us from how broad the matter may really be for the bottom half.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

This is exactly the problem with "perception = reality" thinking and why I object to such arguments and their relationship to emotional thinking. The problem with treating such anecdote as data - especially when it comes to a lot of this atheism stuff - is that it creates a situation where people believe things are a bigger issue than they actually are. Not so much unlike this (http://politicartoons.livejournal.com/3799801.html).

Should we dictate policy based on how people feel the chasm is, or based on what the chasm actually is? It seems like a no-brainer to me, at least.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

or based on what the chasm actually is?

Do you believe there is an objective answer? Personally, I don't think we are completely lost in subjectivism, since we all generally share the same values and interests, such that, again, income and incarceration rates, for instance, really do mean something, in that we should be able to agree that big differences in these meaningfully suggest a wider chasm.

[dexeron.livejournal.com]

With regards to the atheist thing, the problem is that those in a position to dictate policy are more willing to listen to folks who say: "Well, -I've- never experienced that kind of harrassment" over those who report it, when all that is proved is that "this one person didn't experience it." To then make blanket policy decisions that ignore evidence to the contrary is foolish, at best.

Likewise, I think some are not willing to listen to folks who claim a wider "racial chasm" (or whatever we're calling it) because it's more convenient to listen to folks who haven't experienced that, and pretend that this completely disproves the existance of all other experiences.

Does this mean that there aren't folks who find it politically convenient to over-emphasize the width of the chasm? Of course not, but even so, the fact that we're even having this discussion is good evidence that the chasm at the very least exists, and as such, is something worth addressing.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Poll after poll after poll shows very clearly that whites and blacks see things differently on a general level on this question. In fact, blacks and whites both agree there is less institutional prejudice against blacks than in the 1960s, but one of the big gulfs is that whites, by large margins, think racial prejudice has greatly INCREASED against them since that same time.

Al Sharpton is just a bogeyman in this cartoon...and a tired and stale one at that.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

I suppose there is the stress of having to make room for the non-whites. It could not be an entirely painless affair for whites in what must seem like an increasingly competitive world. But I hope the whites won't start asking for reparations. Nevertheless, I take the point that these clashing perceptions don't make the problem easier.

[dexeron.livejournal.com]

Some people think that equality is some zero-sum game, that there's only so much equality to go around, as if granting equal rights to some previously disenfranchised group means that those in power are somehow losing something. All they're really losing, of course, is privilege, monopoly on discourse, and inherent advantages they perhaps never realized they had, but to the privileged I guess it "feels" like the loss of something.

[hookemnick.livejournal.com]

Without this chasm, Al is irrelevant. I'm not claiming that race relations are great everywhere but it is very obvious that Al Sharpton does whatever he can to divide this country across racial lines.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

I agree that he has made a career out of the racial struggle, and in his aggressive pursuit to be the black leader, he can make it easy to be made a caricature of. He is not the best indicator, but there is something behind his noise and smoke. He is an advocate rather than an objective analyst; a fighter in the ring rather then the sober philosopher. But there is something to fight about.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Well, getting stabbed in the chest with a steak knife by a racist does have an effect. Touring with James Brown around the country in the early 70's was probably interesting too.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

I thought I noticed a James Brown influence in the man, heh. That is a more colorful history than I thought.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

I doubt one would remember touring with James Brown in the 70s.

[weswilson]

There is a racial divide. It is better than it was in the past, but it is still quite large. There are systematic elements which many discount with their confirmation bias, and that changes perception of the gap. There are many who experience actual racism who accentuate it due to confirmation bias, and that changes perception of the gap. The result is a truth somewhere in the middle, but accepting one side of the other is usually not rational.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

Because of all the non-white celebrities and superstars in sports and entertainment, with their own meg-riches, I suspect white America can readily dismiss the problem.

[dwer.livejournal.com]

It's both. Most white folks see it as the top. Most african americans will see it as the bottom.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

So, there's a chasm even in terms of seeing the chasm.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

I think such biases would be harder to overcome if we find that there is more segregation, as opposed to this in-school kind of situation presented in the video, even if it is a class-based segregation. Money and class is key to how we move in society, and if there is this class divide, then it just makes it easier for a racial mistrust to fester. A society of middle-class whites and underclass non-whites helps to make the chasm real, I think.

[trog.livejournal.com]

I don't know if you can aggregate things like "race relations". But in my experience, on an individual level, blacks and whites seem to be getting along just fine.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but I take it you see life on an elevated plane. I think it's a little rougher in the bottom third with the working class, the underclass.