Political Cartoons

Actually, there is more support for the second cartoon.

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hardblue.livejournal.com

In principle perhaps, but who wants to live it, aside perhaps from some young college idealists, who might fancy a nice bike ride?

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zanganito.livejournal.com

Maybe someone who'd rather not spend all their money on gas & car payments?

I ride my bike to work all the time (and so do two of my co-workers). It sucks when it rains, or when texting drivers run me off the road, but I've gotten used to it. It's a shame the US doesn't have a better public transportation system or more bike friendly cities. (A faded out sign that tells cars to "share the road" does not do much good unfortunately).

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hardblue.livejournal.com

Maybe someone who'd rather not spend all their money on gas & car payments?

There's always the American way: just get in debt! Do you have a problem with that or something? ;)

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We pay an average of $8,500 every year for every car, truck and SUV on the roads today. That's a total of $1.5 trillion spent on transportation, every year. We could pay down the debt so fast if that money were magically redirected to the federal fisc.

I'm not saying we don't get our money's worth. But many drive much of the time because they have to, not because they want to.

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ladyelysium.livejournal.com

It's a shame the US doesn't have a better public transportation system or more bike friendly cities.

Yeah, having lived in San Antonio for almost 2yrs now there is no way in hell I'm ever riding a bike here, no matter how much I want to.

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On second thought, the dad's kinda Chubb-Rockin' in that cartoon too. Maybe this is considered lean in Cox 'n' Forkum's target market.

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yes-justice.livejournal.com

The genetics of addiction shows that some people physically have a harder time resisting over-eating than others.

Given that addiction is proving to be subjective and variant, shouldn't this give us pause for compassion?

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I think you are confusing coddling for compassion... I am tired with the addiction argument. Maybe we should go easy on people who drink and drive since its just an addiction.

Edited Date: 2013-03-14 06:39 pm (UTC)

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wind-shadow2008.livejournal.com

And yet, we don't see hurtful cartoons mocking people who drink and drive. Alcoholism is a disease, and arguments can be made that obesity is, too (whether you're tired of hearing about it or not):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/scott-kahan-md/obesity-disease_b_861087.html

Advocating for a healthy lifestyle is great. Perpetuating the "fat people are less than human" stereotypes is ignorant and socially irresponsible.

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If obesity is a disease (rather, a symptom of a disease), it should be treated like one. Those people who continue to hold "fat pride" rallies and continue to fight/lobby against sensible healthy lifestyle initiatives, they will continue to be mocked as the victims of nothing more than their own poor lifestyle choices.

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wind-shadow2008.livejournal.com

I agree. After all, to continue with the previous comparison, alcoholics don't have "Alcoholic Pride" rallies. The trouble is, while there are people who are overweight due to laziness/poor choices/etc., it's unfair to categorize ALL obese people in this singular category. My specific issue is over the first cartoon (I think the other two fall into the mock-able category you described).

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I actually wouldn't continue the previous comparison, because alcoholism and drinking and driving have nothing to do with obesity or its consequences. There are no "Alcoholic Pride" rallies for the same reason why there are no "Heroin Pride" rallies--because alcohol addiction is an awful, often lethal thing to experience. Driving intoxicated is a crime that takes the lives of far too many every year. There's nothing to celebrate here.

Obesity is different. There are Fat Pride rallies because people who are overweight can and do live happy, healthy lives. And there are myriad social, economic, genetic, and cultural variables that contribute to obesity, which again, these rallies raise awareness of. And there is this tremendous stigma in our culture against the overweight and these rallies help overcome that.

There is nothing wrong with giving people a reason to feel beautiful about themselves and their size. There is nothing wrong with being supportive of people who want to feel good about themselves as they are. There is nothing wrong with kindness or broadening one's world view to include icons of beauty that don't match your own.

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johnny9fingers.livejournal.com

Keef was a smack addict for many years. Didn't kill him, nor did it prevent him from doing his best work. He functioned well despite his addiction.
Keef could have had a heroin pride rally all by himself. As could have more than a few addicts after WWII, all of whom got the addiction through over-medication during combat, and many of whom had productive lives.

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I would argue that there IS something wrong with encouraging people (and their children!) to consume multiple times their nutritional requirements, the bulk of it in refined sugars, salt and processed fats. I would say there IS something wrong with encouraging people to not try to lose weight when they are clearly and obviously overweight.

There is a massive difference, of course, with people who have various medical/genetic conditions that make it impossible to maintain a healthy weight, but i have very little sympathy for people who choose to eat themselves into an early grave.

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Basically this. I really don't understand why people bring up that some have medical issues. No one is highlighting those people when these cartoons are posted. It is about the people who make a choice to consume more energy then they expend.

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unnamed525.livejournal.com

After all, to continue with the previous comparison, alcoholics don't have "Alcoholic Pride" rallies.

Yes there are. They're called "St. Patrick's Day" parades.

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What is wrong with feeling beautiful at any size?

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We are not talking about what is beautiful. Skinny people can be disgusting too. The issue is about the rising weight gain and its not because people suddenly find it 'beautiful' to be fat.

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1. Beauty is subjective, you will never hear me say anything that places various body types on a scale of aesthetic value.

2. We are not talking about beauty, we are talking about health. It is fine to "feel" beautiful at any size, but if one is twice the ideal weight of a person of one's height and age, primarily because of poor diet and lack of exercise, it is not fine. One can delude oneself into thinking everything is happy and positive, but that doesn't change the medical facts and the statistics. Being overweight leads to a host of serious, potentially fatal conditions, and championing or celebrating it is dangerous.

3. I feel I should clarify, there is a difference between "ideal bodyweight" and "stick thin". Medical science has recently begun to indicate that having an amount of fat more than is necessary is in many situations a good thing. I am referring in the above to the kind of excessive overweight when the excess fat actually impacts one's ability to move or breathe.

Edited Date: 2013-03-16 03:02 am (UTC)

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1. Actually I've heard quite a bit from you on the subject. You advocate mocking people who are overweight and you call them lazy. You seem to have quite a few opinions on matters of body weight and aesthetics.

2. Interesting that you should bring up health and medicine. I've posted two peer-reviewed studies in this thread, both of which concluded that the single strongest indicator of obesity wasn't gluttony...it was poverty. And that shouldn't be surprising to anyone, because if it really WAS as simple as overconsumption and gluttony, then America's waistline would be shrinking during this time of recession and epic unemployment. But it's clearly not, so something else must be driving the problem.

And the answer is that there are many, many variables that drive obesity. What's alarming, however, is that socioeconomic status has been shown to be such a strong predictor and indicator. Highly processed, fat- and sugar- saturated foods are cheap. And when you're living hand to mouth, cheap food is what you live on...and all the fat-shaming in the world won't change that. So that's what bothers me about your angle on this conversation. You seem to want to blame those who are overweight for their condition...when you don't actually know what went into their condition in the first place.

3. Again, I refer you back to my comments in item 2. People don't become so excessively overweight that it impacts their ability to breathe and move because of simple gluttony and laziness. Nobody ever chooses to become imprisoned in their own bodies--it takes an awful chain of events to get to this point. Your judgment and your blame smacks of ignorance.

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1. I defy you to find a single comment made by me that actively seeks to equate overweightness with ugliness.
1a. Three short comments hardly constitutes "quite a bit".

I do concede that I chose my words poorly. I should not have said 'mocked', and I do understand that there are many different factors that lead to obesity, including lack of emotional support, lack of personal responsibility, depression/psychological issues, genetic factors, and social environment. However, I also recognise that it is possible for someone to rise above most of that, and get their life on track. I was borderline obese when I was 13; borderline anorexic when I was 17, and a few months ago I was just in the middle of the overweight range, in terms of BMI. One of the reasons I am so opinionated about weight issues is that I am living through it, and I have chosen to take responsibility for my wellbeing and implement a long-term plan for permanent lifestyle and dietary change.

On the subject of economics, I think that might be linked closely to education, as well. When I was young, I grew up in a single-parent household. We had fresh vegetables pretty much every night, on a single mother's casual wages, my father's minimal child support payments, and small amount of government support. Almost every night. I could go out right now and spend $5 on a packet of frozen burgers that will last maybe two nights, or I could spend that $5 on a packet of frozen beans that will last all week and then fill the edges of a pie. Rice is not expensive. Potatoes are not normally expensive. Take out and fast food is expensive, for what you're getting. It might be that lack of education, more than a lack of money, is the cause.

I do get frustrated, though, when I see overweight people shrugging it off as "oh well, it's genetic! nothing can do!" and then going to an all-you-can-eat buffet for dinner. You may not that my original comment, I said that if people were going to use the 'disease' theory as an excuse for their over-eating, then they will have to treat lit like a disease (i.e. get help/treatment, minimise exposure to lifestyle or dietary factors that aggravate the symptoms, etc.) rather than getting angry or defensive about it. if it's a disease, treatment should be strongly encouraged. if it is a lifestyle, stop excusing it as a disease.

Edited Date: 2013-03-16 11:06 am (UTC)

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Almost every night. I could go out right now and spend $5 on a packet of frozen burgers that will last maybe two nights, or I could spend that $5 on a packet of frozen beans that will last all week and then fill the edges of a pie. Rice is not expensive. Potatoes are not normally expensive.

So according to you, the poor should live on frozen beans, rice, and potatoes. Meat's out of the question because $5.00 of frozen burgers will only last 2 days. Do you understand how unreasonable you sound here?

But why IS good, nutritious, fresh food so expensive and the bad-for-you crap so cheap? Why FARM SUBSIDIES, that's why--the top 3 farm subsidies are paid to corn (2,841 million dollars in 2004,) wheat (1,173 million dollars in 2004,) and soybean (610 million dollars) producers, all for growing the major components of fast, highly processed, grease-laden foods. What AREN'T farm subsidies paid out in large amounts to? Pretty much anything else healthy to eat--160 milllion dollars to all other vegetable crops combined. So your head of cabbage is going to cost a whole Hell of a lot more than your gargantuan size McFries...and at least your fries are already dipped in sugar and then salt, then cooked in that rich, delicious soybean oil for added goodness.

So again, quality food is expensive.

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And I would challenge you to something here, because you're still viewing this argument through the lens of your own experience. And we, neither of us, can do that if we want to understand the underlying causes of obesity. You mention weight issues as a child and an adult, and anorexia as a teenager. These experiences color how you view people who are overweight or obese and how you feel about them--after all, YOU managed your weight, why can't THEY? But this is a bootstraps argument and not everyone's life experience is going to be like yours. I would also challenge you to look at the emotions you feel about obesity, because you make some really negative assumptions:

"I do get frustrated, though, when I see overweight people shrugging it off as "oh well, it's genetic! nothing can do!" and then going to an all-you-can-eat buffet for dinner."

How many people do you personally know that do this? And how do you know that one buffet dinner is something being done on a special occasion? Do you know how they eat the rest of the time? But my guess is this is more of 'you saw an obese person at the Royal Fork, so you assume they just live there and excuse their weight as a slow metabolism.' Or you know one person in your life who makes consistently poor food choices, so you assume every fat person does the same. Either way, these are very biased, very judgmental assumptions you're making and they're going to be false when applied in such a broad fashion.

"You may not that my original comment, I said that if people were going to use the 'disease' theory as an excuse for their over-eating, then they will have to treat lit like a disease (i.e. get help/treatment, minimise exposure to lifestyle or dietary factors that aggravate the symptoms, etc.) rather than getting angry or defensive about it. if it's a disease, treatment should be strongly encouraged. if it is a lifestyle, stop excusing it as a disease."

Are you a medical doctor? Are you a bariatric specialist? Do you have any medical training at all? I'm going to guess you don't, because if you did, you'd realize that the last thing that belongs at the bedside are assumptions about the patient's thought process when it comes to their disease. Because we do treat obesity--it has it's own specialty (bariatrics)--and one of the huge components is recognizing that it's not as simple as pushing away from the table. For medical professionals (I'm an ER/ICU critical care RN) it's imperative that we leave our personal feelings at the door and work from the patient's perspective. Because I can preach all day about how well a chicken romaine salad with light vinaigrette dressing works for me and how I make sure to include at least an hour of cardio and weight work every day...but this doesn't help my patient at all. Hell, it doesn't even apply to my patient! What does help? Recognizing the social stigma my patients' feel and being sensitive to this. Recognizing that healthy food IS expensive and looking into resources for my patients if they want them. Recognizing that medical coverage may be nonexistent for my patients, so specialty bariatric programs may be out of reach financially. And recognizing that my patients have a right to pride in themselves that their weight and medical conditions should not diminish. They are not the sum total of pounds on a scale--they are people who come to my hospital for help and that's what I give them to my best ability.

Cool story sis...and then I'm done.

It was a busy night in the ER and the place was packed. I answered a ringing call light and in that bed was a woman who weighed about 400 pounds. She told me she needed to pee. So I asked her, "How well do you transfer? Can you walk?"

She surprised me by bursting into tears. I was taken back by this and asked her what I'd said that upset her so much. She replied, "No no, it's not that. You're just...you're just the first person who hasn't tried to put me on a bedpan because I'm fat. Because I can walk. I just need someone to unhook these wires for me."

Fat =/= lazy, gluttonous, or a lack of personal responsibility.

(Edited in an effort to shorten. It's just SO MANY WORDS...it's like a WALL of words...)

Edited Date: 2013-03-18 08:53 pm (UTC)

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Your choice to engage in mockery is the sick part of this all.

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You are reaching.

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You're a bully.

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No you are projecting your own insecurities and expecting everyone to cater to them.

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So if you're mocking someone, it's their fault it's a problem, not yours?

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Excuse me? Where do you think you are? This is a community for political cartoons not your baggage.

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This thread is you justifying fat people being mocked. It's ridiculous. My baggage isn't factoring into this, you're a bully.

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Have you calmed down yet or do you still need a time-out?

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Am I engaging in mockery? I said they would continue to be mocked, not that I would mock them.

</ political doublespeak>

The only thing sick about this is when overweight people claim that obesity is a disease, and then continue their excessive diets. You know what we do to diseases, right? We treat them. We try to cure them. In short, we DO something, we don't just throw our hands into the air and continue what we were doing to cause it in the first place.

Edited Date: 2013-03-16 11:06 am (UTC)

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I don't see how the cartoons are hurtful. It is an issue that needs attention. Especially when so many people want the government to give them health care yet they don't think that anyone has the right to say you need to approach things in a healthy manner?

The article you linked discusses how there are many factors at play to weight gain. It doesn't mean that people who are dealing with these health problems can wash their hands of solving the problem by saying "Oh I am addicted." Just an FYI but disease is defined as abnormal condition which surprisingly enough nutrition is all chemistry so of course if you eat like crap and you don't engage in physical activity you are going to feel like garbage and gain weight. Plus the weight gain will also make you feel tired and run down and with a typical hard life it can impact to more weight gain and not wanting to do anything to stop the domino effect.

Basically all I have been saying is that I prefer and even as someone who was obese I prefer when people have solutions and fight to take control of their lives then wash their hands and say "well I am just addicted." which is total bullshit because if you work with your MD and even find a decent support group or just a friend you can make a huge difference in your life then just resigning.

Edited Date: 2013-03-14 07:19 pm (UTC)

From:

wind-shadow2008.livejournal.com

I should have clarified. As I said in a response above, I really am only taking issue with the first cartoon, due to its ambiguity in lumping all obese people into one category.

And I agree with you that obesity is a problem that deserves attention. What I don't agree with is the perception that people are fat simply due to laziness, poor choices, unwillingness to change, etc. Are these factors? For some, absolutely. But not for everyone, and there are so many more factors that can be at play.

Everyone is responsible for their own health, and I do agree that simply going "Oh well, I have a disease" isn't an acceptable excuse. On the flip side, "Just go jogging and eat a salad" is also not going to fix the problem for many.

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macychick.livejournal.com

Very true. And then there are some obese people who genuinely want to lose weight, but they are addicted to food the same way alcoholics are addicted to booze or druggies are addicted to drugs.

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so many people want the government to give them health care yet they don't think that anyone has the right to say you need to approach things in a healthy manner?

THAT is an awfully big brush without even an anecdotal (let alone real numbers) to provide evidence for.

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telemann.livejournal.com

Ditto that.

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madscience.livejournal.com

"And yet, we don't see hurtful cartoons mocking people who drink and drive."

That's because there isn't a culture of people trying to validate and defend it.

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Oh please. You can do better than this.

I'm surprised you haven't addressed the socioeconomic issues of obesity, because they exist and they're easily trackable. Here's one that comes up on just a quick Google search:

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1046/j.1464-5491.2000.00309.x/abstract;jsessionid=331EAD542B608ED56AF8F03BF0EF5AB1.d04t04?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false

The study's conclusion is "The study confirms the relationship between deprivation and the prevalence of Type 2 diabetes. There are more obese, diabetic patients in deprived areas. They require more targeted resources and more primary prevention."

And if that doesn't open for you (because the full length requires a password,) here's another:

http://europepmc.org/abstract/MED/10641588/reload=0;jsessionid=VLdyn7M66HJLdn7zwHlE.4

Conclusion in the second article: "However, a strong consistent relationship is observed between low SES in early life and increased fatness in adulthood."

The second article's remarkable because the authors found an interesting trend in women--that their weight changed when they changed social class--that is, those who were obese in the lowest income brackets often became healthy weight or a healthier weight as their socioeconomic status improved.

Good food, healthy food is expensive food. And if you're already struggling to make ends meet in a desperate economy, buying healthy food can become incredibly difficult.

Edited Date: 2013-03-14 07:16 pm (UTC)

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drivebyluna.livejournal.com

I'm a personal testament to that. I only lost 40 lbs once I graduated college and was able to afford the therapy I needed to fix my foot so I could go running. (Not to mention the shoes, the orthotics, and all the running gear that comes with). My husband and I started doing p90x together and we are lucky enough not only to afford that program but also buying the equipment that is necessary. In addition, moving to California where everyone is healthier (or it seems) and active and healthy food is much more plentiful helped a lot.

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Exactly. The Husband and I have started this "Heart Healthy/Diabetic Diet" menu because my blood sugars have been trending higher than they should be. Overnight, our food budget increased by over 30%. Good food costs a hella lot of money.

Also, what do you think of p90x? It looks incredible.

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drivebyluna.livejournal.com

I think p90x is a great program. I had been running and weight lifting before but I saw really good results. Put on 3lbs of muscle and went from 21 to 16.5% body fat. I'm doing p90x2 but haven't been as satisfied but I also gained a little over Christmas, I've got about 2 weeks left and then I'm going to do a combo of running and the brazil butt DVD series. Depending on your health, though, you may want want to start off with power 90. I haven't tried it but I think the workouts are shorter and more designed for beginners.

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yes-justice.livejournal.com

Better to aim for being a compassionate person versus a hard nosed prick about it all though, I fail to see how being hard is more effective, plus when it comes time to actually not be a prick, you'll already be in good habit. Not that I thought there was anything wrong with posting the cartoons or anything. Just food for thought.

Edited Date: 2013-03-15 03:13 am (UTC)

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telemann.livejournal.com

Clearly the previous fat-wank post wasn't enough.

Edited Date: 2013-03-14 07:50 pm (UTC)

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icelore.livejournal.com

The "lol, fat people" cartoons are old.

Personally, whenever I get a bit unhappy about my weight, I just try and remind myself that I'm healthy, happy, and in the end, I'd rather be fat then an asshole anyway.

Edited Date: 2013-03-14 09:20 pm (UTC)

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new-wave-witch.livejournal.com

The virus is MAH DIQ

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