(no subject)

[lafinjack.livejournal.com]

Sounds like something some of our more contemporary politicians might spout.

Comments

[glenniebun.livejournal.com]

Any of them, even.

[uberreiniger.livejournal.com]

Fail. Comparing Bush to Hitler is so 2003.

[sbp.livejournal.com]

Saying "fail" is so over, man :-)

[lafinjack.livejournal.com]

Who's comparing him to Bush? Have you been paying attention to the dozens of other prominent religious wackos in this country?

[uberreiniger.livejournal.com]

I don't know who you mean, but I also get the impression that you have a much broader definition of what constitutes a "religious whacko" than I do.

[ltmurdoch.livejournal.com]

I don't think he's comparing Bush to Hitler. I think he's just pointing out that it is interesting that Hitler wrote something that sounds VERY contemporary in the US today.

I see at least one problem with implying a similarity between Hitler's writings and current US political rhetoric. First, I don't think Hitler's embrace of Christianity as a moral foundation was in any way the root of his evil. In fact, I would say it was his significant departure from this moral base that made him one of the most evil, genocidal leaders in the history of the world.

The lesson that we can learn, though, is that the claim of embracing Christian values and having a great concern for making the family the core of a society, does not mean you cannot be evil. So, any of you folks out there who decide to vote for someone because "he's a Christian," please think about other ways you might want to evaluate a candidate.

Oh, I don't know...

[iain666.livejournal.com]

.. you can definitely argue that Hitler's genocidal evil was a departure from the teachings of Christ (since he's almost certainly spinning in his grave at the idea that his successors took his message to a load of filthy gentiles...) but it is the logical culmination of a millenium and more of church-sponsored European anti-semitism and therefore his embrace of Christianity is fundamentally at the root of his evil.

Re: Oh, I don't know...

[ltmurdoch.livejournal.com]

Oh, you mean THAT Christianity. Well, in that case, you are right on.


(Seriously, though, based on what you wrote I'd say perhaps his embrace of "the church" rather than his embrace of "Christianity" would be the real root to his evil. Maybe it's impossible to separate "the church" from "Christianity" since arguably one is defined by the other, but I'd like to think that one is pure and consistent in it's values while the other is run by humans who, despite their best intentions, are flawed like the rest of us.)

Re: Oh, I don't know...

[iain666.livejournal.com]

It's certainly difficult to seperate "Christianity" from "the church", not least because the teachings of Christ reach the 21st century through two millenia of church filtering.

I think any modern attempt to seperate 'church' and 'christianity' in the 21st century amounts to little more than an attempt to disown the demonstrably nasty bits of the official doctrine without giving up on the whole thing. To claim consistency and purity I'd like you to show me some kind of continuous set of values from ~30AD to now and I don't think that can be done in any kind of documented way.

[sbp.livejournal.com]

Looks like the Pope is saluting there!

[thebigbadbutch.livejournal.com]

I think it's unfortunate that the only fascist most people can name off the top of their heads is Hitler. There are so many other fascists who rule their countries in similar ways to compare our current government to without violating Godwin's Law.

[head-splitter.livejournal.com]

For once we agree here.

[tbonestg.livejournal.com]

Possibly because we live in a Western Christian nation?

Guess what, politicians in Muslim countries will say the same thing about Islam.

Just because a Nazi said that the sky is up doesn't mean that there's anything at all remarkable when another politician does it.

[artists-rifles.livejournal.com]

Please tell me you were joking when you said "Western Christian nation."

Otherwise, spot on.

[tbonestg.livejournal.com]

We are. Just like France is and Germany is and so on...

In case you haven't noticed, most Americans are not Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Atheists, Confucians, etc. They are, in fact, Christians.

[ltmurdoch.livejournal.com]

That doesn't neccessarily make us a "Christian nation" since that implies Christianity is the basis for laws, etc. It makes us a nation made up primarily of Christians.

Analogy: South Africa in the 1970's. Most citizens are black but it's run by white people with a policy that limits black people's rights. Is it a "black nation" or a "nation made up primarily of black people." I'd have a hard time calling it a "black nation" since it was a pretty bad place to live if you were black.

[tbonestg.livejournal.com]

That doesn't neccessarily make us a "Christian nation" since that implies Christianity is the basis for laws, etc. It makes us a nation made up primarily of Christians.

No, the United States is not a theocracy, but that doesn't mean that Christianity isn't the source of our laws. I mean, is there some other reason that liquor stores here close early on Sundays and don't even open in other states?

And considering that the Supreme Court has the 10 Commandments displayed as part of its legal tradition, they seem to be on board with the idea too.

[lafinjack.livejournal.com]

And considering that the Supreme Court has the 10 Commandments displayed as part of its legal tradition, they seem to be on board with the idea too.

Er, yeah, about that. If you're going to make the argument that the Supreme Court is influenced by the appearance of the commandments (only the more secular 6-10, and in Hebrew, mind) on its walls, you also need to argue that they are also influenced by the other lawgivers on those same walls, which include Menes, Hammurabi, Solomon (that other king of the Jews), Lycurgus of Sparta, Solon, Draco, Confucius, Augustus (where's our Pax Americana?), Justinian 1, Muhammad (lol), Charlemagne, King John of England (worst King of England ever, right in line with our current president, right?), King Louis IX of France, Hugo Grotius, Sir William Blackstone, John Marshall, and Napoleon (imperialistic, much?).

I'm not sure where you thought you were going with the ten commandments bit, but it amuses me as to where it actually took you.

[ltmurdoch.livejournal.com]

Well played.

So, clearly, the US is a "Napoleonic" nation. Wait, no, make that "Draconian." It sounds much better that way.

[ltmurdoch.livejournal.com]

We're down to semantics here. I will agree that dogmatic traditions of Christianity (e.g. Sunday is a day of rest) have "influenced" our laws, but I wouldn't say it's the "source" of our laws. And a lot of Christianity has influenced our society's morals (or is it "mores?"), and since many of our laws and public policies are rightly based on the prevailing morals/mores of our society, indeed Christianity has had an influence on the laws of our nation. But I'd argue that many of those morals are not the sole propriety of Christianity and therefore it would be pretty easy to argue many of our laws are based on Judaism, Budism, Hinduism, etc.

And to add to lafinjack's extremely well-played point below, the 10 Commandments are not "Christian."