(no subject)

[mishdogg.livejournal.com]

Okay, here's what I don't understand: How can a group of people start out as followers of Islam "the Religion of Peace," and then convince themselves that Allah has called them to form a group that holds such disregard for human life, teaches cruel, selfish, hateful doctrine, and encourages murder in the most random and excruciating way possible, and tells them to call themselves "The Party of God." (hezbollah)





The party of God?? These people claim to be Islamic, claim that Islam is a peaceful religion, and yet they do these horrible things! They even put a fucking gun in their logo. I'm not muslim, I don't know any muslims personally, and I know that's where most of my ignoranc on this topic stems from. I'm just looking at the evidence from the actions of people who profess the religion, and I cannot bridge the intellectual gap between "peace" and "suicide bomber."

And about those who blow themselves up in public, trying to take out as many innocent people as possible, selfishly believing that they will be rewarded with a harem of female slaves, and considering their cruel and selfish act to be "brave?" It's just incredible.

Does anyone have a personal response to this that might shed some light around here?

Comments

[failouch.livejournal.com]

Muslims supposedly believe that dying and killing in the name of their god is the highest honor one could possibly achieve. Like the radical side of any religion, they believe that theirs is the one and only path to salvation.

[mishdogg.livejournal.com]

..."killing in the name of their god is the highest honor..." THIS is what I'm talking about! How can they believe this, and call themselves peaceful??

"Killing (with or without provisions) is good" = violent.
"Killing (with or without provisions) is not good" = peaceful.

That's a rationale that I can follow. Does that make any sense?

[adayinthelife.livejournal.com]

how does George Bush believe he is a Christian, since he is still responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands?

how about the Spanish inquisition, were they good Christians? how bout the slaveowners? how bout Nazi Germany? lots of good Christians there

[fleaplus.livejournal.com]

Was Abraham Lincoln a good Christian for killing hundreds of thousands of his own countrymen?

[labetephoque.livejournal.com]

He wasn't a Christian, so that's a trick question.

[tubaboy81.livejournal.com]

True, but what's your point? Was someone here saying there haven't been horrible Christians?

[nallyo.livejournal.com]

How is Bush responsible for the deaths of hundreds of thousands? Has every single death since 2000 been Bush's fault? Since there is no way that that many have died in Iraq and Afghanistan, you might want to check your figures.

[failouch.livejournal.com]

They believe it because their little book tells them to.
Just like radical Christians believe it's okay to twist the Bible's context to fit their own selfish needs. It's and endless circle, really, and until someone with enough power to actually do something realizes this, it won't ever change.

[tubaboy81.livejournal.com]

Actually, I suspect (also like certain of my fellow Christians) many of them believe because their leaders tell them to.

[adayinthelife.livejournal.com]

there are hypocrites in every field of belief. there are "Christians" who are extremely hateful, violent, even murderous.

there are some peaceful, rational Muslisms just like there are some peaceful, rational Christians. but there are ass-hat Muslims who blow shit up, just like there are ass-hat "Christians" that blow shit up. not to mention nice Jews, and ass-hat Jews, who also blow shit up. you can't judge an entire religion by the actions of a few people.

when people tell me all Muslims are terrorists (there are plenty of people who believe that out there) because some Muslims blow themselves up, i tell that's like saying all Christians are child-molesters, because some Christians rape little boys.

[mishdogg.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you brought this up.

Yes, professed-Christians have tortured and killed in the name of Christ. And as I understand true Christianity to be founded on love, humility, acceptance, self-sacrifice and service, I can understand the difference between the true Christians and the false ones.

That actually made alot of sense to me.

PS. In the interest of accuracy, I'd like to point out that saying "all Christians are child-molesters" because some of them have raped little boys is not quite the same as saying "all Muslims are terrorists"-- the difference being that no "Christian" believes that God told them to rape children, it's always a sinful discretion--whereas that is the believe that the "terrorist" Muslims use to rationalize their actions.

[pentha.livejournal.com]

Both common people (fathers to their daughters, for example) and priests (see only last years's victims' reports against Catholic priests) have used the Bible to convince their victims that God says that they deserve to be abused or raped.

[jsingood.livejournal.com]

Just about any large group will have a variety of differing beliefs and some nutjobs. The important thing is not to let the PC police convince you that singling out and defending yourself against the whackos is somehow "racist" or "bigoted" against the entire group.

The extremist fundamentalist jihadists within Islam have declared war not just with the "west," but with the entire non-muslim world.

Case in point, Buddhist school teachers in Thailand are being murdered by these bastards:

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2006/7/24/apworld/20060724171300&sec=apworld

[hikarugenji.livejournal.com]

The important thing is not to let the PC police convince you that singling out and defending yourself against the whackos is somehow "racist" or "bigoted" against the entire group.

And on the other side of the coin, don't let the conservative Bush-worshippers convince you that these people are representative of the entire religion and that Islam is fundamentally a religion of violence.

[pentha.livejournal.com]

Correct.

Also, same goes to Judaism and Christianity. See Old Testament. See Revelation. See Paul's Epistoles. See 'the chosen people'.

And following that, see history.

[mishdogg.livejournal.com]

Wow. wow. that's insane.

I hadn't read the articles you've linked to, and it's amazing to me that a jewish writer would write something so self-aware and critical of his own administration's actions during a time of "war." I wish more American journalists in the mainstream media would have the balls to do that.

Thanks for your response.

[kmilligan.livejournal.com]

Hasn't Hezbollah been making statements saying they wouldn't accept disarming or the Lebanese military in Southern Lebanon, nor any kind of international peacekeeping force? Hezbollah remains committed to the destruction of Israel by any means necessary. How do you negotiate with that?

[prock.livejournal.com]

You don't. You just stick to your guns and commit yourself to the destruction of Hezbollah.

[kmilligan.livejournal.com]

So all those rocket attacks into Israel against civilian targets were/are a figment of everyone's imagination?

[kmilligan.livejournal.com]

The IDF isn't using civilians as shields

[kmilligan.livejournal.com]

Looks like a captured prisoner to me behind cover. Look, Hezbollah is hiding rockets in people's houses. The IDF does counter-battery operations when they take rocket fire into Israel (which aren't aimed at military targets, BTW) in an effort to destroy the launching sites. It's unfortunate that civilians are dying, but it's Hezbollah that's located its military assets among the civilian population. There are tactical and strategic reasons why they do it, but it doesn't make it any less reprehensible.

Israel is not systematically targeting civilians. If it was a body count they wanted, Israel has the capability to kill every single person in Lebanon. But they aren't doing that, because it wouldn't serve any strategic purpose. The strategic purpose is to weaken or eliminate Hezbollah's military capability, and most of what they have done so far seems to be geared toward that goal.

That's not to say I don't think this whole thing is a tragedy, because Lebanon has gone through enough in its history, and its people have for far too long paid the price for other bad actors in the region. But it was Hezbollah who created the casus belli by storming into Israel and killing 8 soldiers and kidnapping two. As long as Hezbollah remains a military force in Lebanon, there isn't going to be any peace. The only hope is when this is all over, the Lebanese can extract this cancer from their country and polity, and actually become a stable, liberal democratic country.

[shadowfox24.livejournal.com]

A series of "proportional" responses is called a stalemate. Disproportionate responses win wars. True peace can only follow victory, either one side or the other has to utterly lose. Anything less will be a false peace that lasts until the lesser side again rebuilds enough strength to resume fighting. The soviets imposed a false peace on Yugoslavia for over 40 years by keeping the sides separated via force of arms. But what happened the minute the iron curtain fell and the Red Army withdrew?

Self fulfilling prophecies rule!

[shadowfox24.livejournal.com]

UR TEH NAZI OMGWTF!!!1!

Happy?

[kmilligan.livejournal.com]

Israel is attempting to neutralize Hezbollah, who use civilians as shields. If Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah agree to stop fighting, and recognize Israel... there will be peace. If Israel stops fighting, there will be a bloodbath.

[madmethod.livejournal.com]

Down with religion, I say. How much trouble will we let Him(Her) cause before people stop listening to religious leaders and start using their brains?

[vlion.livejournal.com]

The truth will make you free.

T/F?

[hippopotassium.livejournal.com]

Also, much like Hamas, Hezbollah does do public works, which accounts for their popular appeal. They build schools, hospitals, provide transportation there, and both even operate their own television and radio stations. In an unstable region, providing services like that means a lot, and when someone does it for you, it doesn't take much to support them.

A lot of the media here is "OMG TERRORISTS HOW COULD ANYONE SUPPORT THEM?!!!1?!?//" But what they fail to bring to light is that the military wings are not where a majority of their popular support comes from.

[yamansalahi.livejournal.com]

"disregard for human life, teaches cruel, selfish, hateful doctrine, and encourages murder in the most random and excruciating way possible"

Could you please clarify what specific instances you are referring to here?

[donkeyjon.livejournal.com]

disregard for human life

Suicide bombings (practiced by most terrorist factions, not just Muslims)
Beheadings (pretty much only Muslims, though taped executions are par for the course for any insurgent movement)

teaches cruel, selfish, hateful doctrine

"We will not rest until Israel is destroyed and its people are driven into the sea."
"If you die in the course of a suicide mission against Israel, you will go to Paradise and be greeted by a cadre of virgins."

encourages murder in the most random and excruciating way possible

Encouraging murder is easily explained in the first two. As for the rest, I have NO idea what he meant.


Also, YES, any of these same claims can be made of Christians or Jews throughout their histories and in current world politics. But they certainly apply to the current Islamic terrorist groups as well. Anyone who tells you that Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. are supporting peace is lying to you. They might WANT peace, but they are certainly willing to kill civilians in order to get it. (As are Israel and the United States, but you don't see anyone claiming that they are the "countries of Peace".)

[evil-admiral.livejournal.com]

Nothing about any religion, Muslim or otherwise, has anything to do with logic or rationality.

[commutativeboy.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Religion collectively causes far more stupidity than hormones and alcohol combined.

[drivebyluna.livejournal.com]

is it any different than christian acts in the past?

[desidono.livejournal.com]

That may be the case, but it doesn't make it right.

[jsingood.livejournal.com]

We're not living in the past. We have to deal with the problems of the here and now.

[commutativeboy.livejournal.com]

That may be true, but I think what the commenter was trying to imply is that we should not objectively hold Christianity above Islam, since they are both susceptible to radical extremist interpretation and can be used as justifications for violence, as indicated by current events and Christian history.

[jsingood.livejournal.com]

In principle, I agree. But when a group moves beyond radical extremism, overall, I do think it should be recognized and commended. While an agnostic myself, I do believe is currently a step above, or at least further down the road of reform, than Islam, in general - in other words, there are a lot more radical extremists to worry about in the Muslim world than in the Christian one currently. Still not perfect, though. But, yes, all groups, not just religions, are subject to psychotic fundamentalism and extremism. Heck, just take a look at the modern animal rights and environmental movements which has been infected by a radical terrorist fringe.

There is nothing wrong with recognizing where the problems lie, and in attempting to help these groups with there problems move toward reform. And, yeah, it's probably best to keep the history of one's own groups and beliefs in mind to improve understanding and evoke sympathy for the non-radical elements that desire reform.

[cscottd.livejournal.com]

It's because the individuals and groups involved are radicals and extremists, not the religion itself, and like radicals and extremists of all religions they've managed to convince themselves that their "enemies" somehow deserve their hatred.

It's the same kind of mentality that lets radical Christians carry signs that say "God Hates Fags", even though the message of the New Testament is very clearly one of love, not hate.

I believe that every religion has its radical elements, and I suspect that they tend to be the same types of people, regardless of the specific religion. They have an agenda of hate, and they've simply latched onto their religion as an ideology for furthering that agenda (conveniently overlooking the fact that the central message of the religion itself runs contrary to that hate).

That's my opinion anyway.

[katndhat33.livejournal.com]

"I imagine God is weary of being called down on both sides of an arguement."

Cold Moutian

[vlion.livejournal.com]

I agree.

[drunken-leper.livejournal.com]

umm yeah most of them are living in the 7th century.

[vlion.livejournal.com]

I make a sharp distinction between a Muslim and an Islamist, in order to differentiate between Joe Al'Sixpack and Joe Al'Blowthemup.