#gamergate

[madscience.livejournal.com]

Comments

[nope-de-plume.livejournal.com]

Gamers spent years insisting games are real art but when people try to critique it like it's real art they're monsters.

[madscience.livejournal.com]

Can you provide an example of a critique of "real art" that you think is analogous to the kinds of criticism depicted in the comic?

[joshthevegan.livejournal.com]

Some might argue the "real art" level of it (though I would point out several examples that prove that it most assuredly is), but punk rock since its inception has been accused of being nothing more than "that music where they roll in glass and cut themselves" and nothing but soundtracks for riots (leading to unwarranted police presence / brutality at shows)



In reaction, instead of threatening mass murder against anyone who would speak out against it and those that would attend those speeches, punks continued doing what they were doing and slowly that stigma has abated.

[madscience.livejournal.com]

Interesting example.

Do you think that the different reactions of the punk community and the gamer community are characteristic of their specific subcultures, or do you think the difference has more to do with a more general change in the way people respond to unfair criticism?

The gamers of the 80s and 90s didn't threaten mass murder. Do you think gamers do that now because the Internet has made it easy, impersonal, and trendy?

[oslo.livejournal.com]

Gosh, look at the first hit you get when you google "misogynist literature": I'll provide the actual link, (http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2013/12/09/in_no_regrets_women_writers_talk_about_what_it_was_like_to_read_literature.html) since it's clear you can't be arsed to do even the most trivial tasks to inform yourself.

[lafinjack.livejournal.com]

[grok-mctanys.livejournal.com]

I know, right? The two situations are, like, exactly the same.

Because, back then, there were mountains of evidence of, like, a huge increase in mass shootings, and of a massive rise in the number of satanic cults being formed and just taking over communities, and, um.... no, wait, that's not it.

OK, it's not that, it's that just like then, now there's, like, absolutely zero evidence of misogyny, sexism, racism or homophobia in gaming communities. Just read the message boards! Not a single example to be found. Definitely no death threats aimed purely either at women, or at men who also try to point to what they think is "evidence" of sexism. Also no rape threats ever.

Oh, er... no, that can't be it either. Shit. Fucking evidence, how does it work again?

[madscience.livejournal.com]

But are these things characteristic of the gaming community per se, or are they characteristic of something else, e.g., the Internet?

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

The gaming community is apparently not immune.

[dexeron.livejournal.com]

Irrelevant, since no one is saying that it is limited to the gaming "community" (if that's even a term worth using, since that's like saying that everyone who has ever watched sports on TV is part of a "community.") However, as the gaming community is a subset of a larger community that still is largely conforming to patriarchal forms of thought, it deserves criticism by those within it who feel that it can do better. And in fact, you will note that the greatest criticisms of misogyny in the gaming community come from within it, from gamers who wish to see their own hobby and pastime improved. This is a far cry from the criticisms of the 80s, levied by frightened parents at the behest of the culture warriors of the moral majority.

[grok-mctanys.livejournal.com]

Given that there are plenty of internet communities out there which do not breed - or even tolerate - misogyny, sexism, racism, homophobia, or threats of physical violence, such bile clearly isn't an inevitable emergent property of the internet itself.

However, I think it's fairly clear that the problems in the gaming community aren't limited to the gaming community, and didn't originate there. Non-diverse communities, such as white supremacist groups, or MRA fora, are probably more toxic, but they don't have much appeal to people whose primary goal is something other than hate.

Gaming communities on the other hand are supposed to be focussed on... games. But somehow, they do appear to have attracted and concentrated those problems in a greater way than many other communities with diverse memberships. I would certainly suggest that many gamers, interested primarily in games, who would never have considered visiting e.g. an MRA discussion site, are primarily exposed to that sort of bigotry through their gaming communities. It's there that they learn to normalise and spread that sort of behaviour. They at least learn not to speak up against it, when they see those that do get death threats and rape threats coupled with doxxings.

Whether or not thinking that making credible death threats to other people for expressing an opinion (even an unpopular one) is a problem soley limited to gaming communities is somewhat irrelevant. It's not an inevitable problem that affects all communities, but it is a problem in gaming communities, and needs to be addressed there.

[joshthevegan.livejournal.com]

It's interesting you "hashtagged" this post GamerGate, since that is the perfect example of just how incredibly awful gamers can actually be. The death / rape threats, the unending witch hunt over . . . what? Some female these lonely psychos don't even know? "How dare a female be having sex and it not be with me!" That seems to be the message I'm getting from the "outraged" gamers.

This comical look at the whole thing made me laugh but also shed light on some of the issues (http://www.cracked.com/blog/7-ways-gamergate-debate-has-made-world-worse/)

[oslo.livejournal.com]

Oh look, another subject on which you're completely wrong. Quelle surprise.

[madscience.livejournal.com]

At least I agree with your self-assessment in your user profile.

[oslo.livejournal.com]

So is calling me a "failure" the sort of rhetorical technique you are supposedly here to learn?

I'd say that I pitied you and the pathetic way that you’ve learned to look at the shit that is your life and find within it proof of your genius, but the truth is I don't. In fact, that delusional attitude is so endemic within American society, that if I pitied you, I’d have to pity most of the Republican Party as well. It is useless to try to pity such masses; I am not the Buddha.

My profile attempts to express an existential attitude that I have adopted as a corrective to an ego that would otherwise self-inflate without limit, occluding valuable insights and stymieing potential growth - much like yours has. The fact that you look at it as little more than an opportunity for a potshot just helpfully demonstrates how hopelessly up your own ass your ugly mug is.

[mudryikot.livejournal.com]

Why not post some soothing Bible quotes?
JER51:20 Thou art my battle axe and weapons of war: for with thee will I break in pieces the nations, and with thee will I destroy kingdoms;
JER51:21 And with thee will I break in pieces the horse and his rider; and with thee will I break in pieces the chariot and his rider;
JER51:22 With thee also will I break in pieces man and woman; and with thee will I break in pieces old and young; and with thee will I break in pieces the young man and the maid;

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Team penispower speaks (http://skepchick.org/2014/10/online-threats-against-women-now-officially-terrorism/):

(http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/yes_justice/717052/17529/17529_original.jpg)

[dexeron.livejournal.com]

"Kids that play video games are a bunch of violent parasites of society who will end up perpetuating mass murders."

Looking for incidents of the various prophesied mass murders and increase in violence by gamers. Evidence not found.

"The gamer culture is full of misogynistic basement dwellers, sexist pigs who live only to harass women."

Looking for incidents of the various prophesied harassment and misogyny . Oh. Oh dear.

♫ One of these things is not like the other... ♫

[madscience.livejournal.com]

Your comment is basically a point-by-point repeat of an older one (http://politicartoons.livejournal.com/4475556.html?thread=101758628#t101758628), so look there for a response.

[weswilson]

This cartoon falls apart for two reason...

1) Those speaking out against violence were non-gamers and people outside the industry who were taking activities outside the genre and trying to draw correlations that did not reflect the content of the games. Those speaking out against misogyny in gaming are gamers and people inside the industry who are looking at activities inside the genre and trying to show how content of games is reflective of behavior outside the industry.

2) Gaming culture is not full of violent parasites, but it is full of misogynists and sexists. As someone who works on the front lines of both gaming journalism and game customer support, I can assure you this is almost a truism.

[madscience.livejournal.com]

2) I question whether it is "full of" anything, since gaming culture now encompasses more than half the US population.

[farchivist.livejournal.com]

1) Gamer society has been full of misogynistic basement dwellers since I started gaming in the 1980s. And I'm not talking video/computer; I'm talking pen and paper and wargaming. It's where the term Cat Piss Man (http://forum.rpg.net/archive/index.php/t-36461.html) came from. The two threads from RPG.net about the Creepiest Gamer (http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?369229-Necro-Creepiest-Person-You-ve-Ever-Gamed-With-Part-Deux) you've ever encountered are fairly accurate in their depictions.

2) Actually, yeah, many games I have played (especially in the 1990s) ARE full of racism, homophobia, and sexism. It's just, y'know, how it was then. Not much different from Jim Crow South; it's just how it was then. Change was slow.

3) As long as #GamerGate is going to ally itself with death threat makers, corrective rape squad proposers, and the scuzziest sections of the MRA Manosphere (http://wehuntedthemammoth.com/category/gamergate/), I'm sure as shit going to tell them to fuck off and have absolutely no sympathy. They should have gone ahead and signed up the Klan while they're at it, the way they're acting. It would improve their image to be allied with the Klan, that's how bad they look right now.

[madscience.livejournal.com]

And yet, the very fact that gamers themselves recognize and condemn Cat Piss Man is evidence that the stereotype is not representative. Gamer society is not "full of" basement dwellers.

It should be relatively easy to estimate the number of people involved in the unsavory side of #gamergate, at least within an order of magnitude or two. I'm sure it's nowhere near 170 million, which is how many video gamers there are in the US alone. #notallgamers?

[farchivist.livejournal.com]

And yet, the very fact that gamers themselves recognize and condemn Cat Piss Man is evidence that the stereotype is not representative.

Perhaps not NOW. Up until the 2000s, abso-fucking-lutely they were the majority.

Gamer society is not "full of" basement dwellers.

You forgot to add "anymore" onto the end of that sentence. But it will be again, if the GamerGate people have their way.

It should be relatively easy to estimate the number of people involved in the unsavory side of #gamergate, at least within an order of magnitude or two

I don't see the point in estimating the number of people "involved in the unsavory side of #gamergate". If they're a part of your group and you don't actively excommunicate them and bar them from your group, then you are allied with them. Until the Tea Partiers drum him out, Joe Arpaio's still one of them - and I treat them all like I'd treat him. Whether the number of GamerGaters involved in the death threats are 1, 10, 100, or 1,000,000, they want their view to win - and I oppose them and all allied with them.

Or in short, when the "good" GamerGaters say "Well, I don't think Sarkeesian should be passed around as a rapeslave and assassinated, but these 8channers make good points otherwise.", I give no shits. They're passive namby-pamby demurrals equate to condoning and acceptance.

Even shorter: If you have Klan, it doesn't matter if you are Klan, allied to Klan, or neutral on Klan. All that matters is, are you AGAINST Klan?

[new-wave-witch.livejournal.com]