Forecast for Middle East: More War

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

"Obama, in Speech on ISIS, Promises Sustained Effort to Rout Militants" - NYT

Comments

[angelcerv25.livejournal.com]

This might sound ridiculous, but can we do simply nothing? I mean, until they're a threat over here, what do we care this religious war? Can we mind our own business in this?

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

After all these years, spilling all this blood and treasure, I can be tempted to agree with you. But people who live and study this stuff seem to think differently. There is Colin Powell's famous warning: if we break it, we buy it. Arguably, we have some responsibility to put Iraq back together again. And we have to consider whether we can just turn away as ISIS does its ethnic cleansing, or religious cleansing. And they do promise to spread the war, even to bring it home to us. Doing nothing might not have been so easy. Though, more war doesn't look so brilliant either.

[angelcerv25.livejournal.com]

I feel strongly against any involvement at this point, or we clearly haven't learned our lesson which is that we're not world cop because we can't afford it anymore.

[mudryikot.livejournal.com]

If nothing is done now pretty soon someone will have to kick them out of Kuwait or Saudi Arabia.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

Obama tonight gave up his ten year dream to be the president remembered by history for ending two wars.

— Jonathan Alter (@jonathanalter) September 11, 2014 (https://twitter.com/jonathanalter/status/509880800972902400)

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Thanks ISIS!

[madscience.livejournal.com]

He gave that up when he ended the Iraq war on Bush's timetable, almost to the day.

[dexeron.livejournal.com]

Love my President, support him, and am still honestly unsure if maybe he is right in that we do have to do something (seeing as how we created the mess in the first place, but when in the hell have our airstrikes accomplished anything but creating more orphans, widows, and terrorists?) Some other things in particular that bugged me.

1. I know it's vital to highlight that ISIL does not represent the majority of Muslims, and avoid the kind of scapegoating that often plagues groups of minority religion or ethnicity, but "they are not islamic?" What the hell with this "No True Scotsman" bullshit? Say "they do not represent the majority of Muslims" or "the majority of Muslims condemn them" and that would be true, but come on, who the hell is he to say what is and is not Islamic, aside from it being a gigantic logical fallacy? I'm pretty sure that the people who are flocking to its banner because of their religious convictions have a pretty clear idea of how religious they think it is.

2. And "No religion condones the killing of innocents?" Gee, I guess all the passages in pretty much every major western holy book calling for the murder of those who don't believe/don't belong are all in my head, huh? Oh, I forgot, those people the Bible/Koran calls for murdering aren't "innocent" because of "insert stupid justification here" so it's ok to kill them.

A side point, but I get so freaking sick of this whole "religion is a positive force for good, always" bullshit. And then when someone does evil, using religion as a justification: "oh, they weren't REALLY religious." And atheists remain are the least trusted group in America. Seems legit. Weinberg said it best: "With or without [religion] you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."

3. We need to help the Syrian opposition? So, how, exactly, are we supposed to differentiate between the "moderate" opposition and the next aspiring ISIL in Syria? I mean, remind me again where ISIL got all of their arms and money?

Also, he gives the speech the night before 9/11. Argh.

Yeah, we can help bolster the Kurds and Iraqis, and support and train them. I'm not against that part of it. Let's help the people to defend themselves against a group that literally wants to come in, conquer, and kill them. That's something worth doing. Maybe (and I mean maybe) airstrikes need to be part of that? I'd almost rather have him say "I said I didn't want to put boots on the ground, and part of being a president is doing what needs to be done, even if I don't like it. BOOTS ON THE GROUND." even as horrible as that would be. I'm pretty convinced that's where we're headed anyway, so I almost feel like dragging our feet on that will just make things worse when we finally do go back in. I'd so much rather we had some way of resolving all of this that didn't involve blowing up anyone or sending anyone over, but I guess that's naive of me. Certainly I understand that there are terrible people doing terrible things, and ignoring it will not make them go away or stop trying to genocide anyone who disagrees. I'm just so pissed off that here we are in the 21st century, and we are still dealing with this kind of bullshit. In this modern world, we still have people killing other people for being the wrong fucking color, or believing in the wrong detail of some bullshit fairy story from over a thousand years ago.

Fuck.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

Heh, I'm glad you got that off your chest. It's a frustration that I think just about all of us feel. I am a little surprised about one thing, your first point on 'Islamic'. I take that as mainly a conservative point, whereas liberals want to make clear their tolerance for other religions. Though, maybe it's there to be heard from atheist liberals too, feeling that same irritation over 21st-century holy wars.

As for the third point, I do feel that we are cursed to constantly repeat the lesson that we always end up training and arming our enemies, going back even to Osama bin Laden last century.

But I know. I feel like I don't want to be in this world.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Say "they do not represent the majority of Muslims" or "the majority of Muslims condemn them"

Well I was pretty surprised to learn recently, there is significant support for ISIS in Saudi Arabia (http://www.businessinsider.com/lori-plotkin-boghardt-saudi-arabia-terrorism-record-2014-8), a recent poll conducted by one of Saudi Arabia's leading newspapers, they found a shocking amount of support. Hell, even in France, 15 percent support ISIL.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

I hear you, man.

[mylaptopisevil.livejournal.com]

What the hell with this "No True Scotsman" bullshit?

You know how we smugly point out when pro-life people also aggressively tear down systems meant to assist families in financial risk?

Same thing. Nothing would piss off a religious fanatic more than being told they're doing a disservice to their fanaticism.

[mudryikot.livejournal.com]

Armed and dangerous Kurds in the long run will probably also turn anti-American, as they would want to settle scores with Turkey, which is US key ally in eastern Med.

[angelcerv25.livejournal.com]

[madscience.livejournal.com]

"No True Scotsman", indeed. The left needs to recognize that groups like ISIS are an inevitable consequence of religious tolerance. The humanist ideal should be the generational annihilation of all religion.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

Russia:

“The U.S. president has spoken directly about the possibility of strikes by the U.S. armed forces against ISIL positions in Syria without the consent of the legitimate government,” Foreign Ministry spokesman Alexander Lukashevich said. “This step, in the absence of a U.N. Security Council decision, would be an act of aggression, a gross violation of international law.”

Morrissey:

Gee, I must have missed the UN Security Council resolution that granted Russia sovereignty over Crimea, and the invitation to send armor and infantry into eastern Ukraine. For that matter, perhaps the Kremlin could be kind enough to point us toward the UNSC resolution that authorized the Russian invasion of Georgia in 2008 and the seizure of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as well. After all, Vladimir Putin’s regime appears to be an expert on international law, so …

-- Sully's Dish (http://dish.andrewsullivan.com/2014/09/11/from-the-annals-of-chutzpah-35/)

[madam-shapo.livejournal.com]

Whoever is Morrisey, he doesn't know what he is talking about. Crimea, Abkhazia and Ossetia declared independence, just like Kosovo that never existed before Clinton bombed the hell out of Yugoslavia.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

The full quote is some serious "OH SNAP!" prose.

Gee, I must have missed the UN Security Council resolution that granted Russia sovereignty over Crimea, and the invitation to send armor and infantry into eastern Ukraine. For that matter, perhaps the Kremlin could be kind enough to point us toward the UNSC resolution that authorized the Russian invasion of Georgia in 2008 and the seizure of Abkhazia and South Ossetia as well. After all, Vladimir Putin’s regime appears to be an expert on international law, so …

[mudryikot.livejournal.com]

No one bombed anyone in Crimea.

[madam-shapo.livejournal.com]

So arming ISIS to fight ISIS doesn't make sense to even liberals. Interesting.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

LOL I'm glad someone is enjoying this. ;)

[pacotelic.livejournal.com]

Andy Marlette's is the dumbest of them all.

[mudryikot.livejournal.com]

I wonder how much more before US govt would admit that you would have been better off leaving Saddam in place.

[johnny9fingers.livejournal.com]

That's the one.

GWB had an unfinished war of his dad's to deal with. Now the rest of us have an unfinished resolution to manage.

Life is so sweet when you can leave it all to someone else after two terms and go and paint pictures.

[mudryikot.livejournal.com]

Bit too late, but I just saw it.