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[unnamed525.livejournal.com]

Comments

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

You're being deliberately difficult.

Ya know how the Constitution does not say anything about, oh, Tanks? Well, similarly, Jesus did not make any statements on credit default swaps, or CDO's or high-frequency trading.

SCOTUS, as appointed by the Constitution does for the US what the Pope does for Jesus.

Are you trying to be denser than usual?

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Really???

It is almost always amusing when a self proclaimed atheist (even one with a degree in philosophy) attempts to tell Christians what they should believe and do. Even if the Pope was speaking "ex-cathedra" (which I don't believe he was) about wealth redistribution; how does this affect the non-Catholic Christians?

Seriously dude, there are so many things wrong with that quote, starting with the presuppositions that are implied, that the fact it was attributed to Carter is obvious for the reason given by Jeff*. (altho in fairness I accepted it as from him, due to some of (what I consider) outrageous statements he has made in the past based on different interpretations of what he considers a "true Christian"

*How many times have we heard his qualifications for being able to speak with such wisdom and authority on Christianity is because he is a Baptist and has taught Sunday School? Heck I have those credentials myself (altho I am no longer technically a Baptist) :D

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple courts, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

And??

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

He had a conflicted relationship with the free market.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Well there you go, Since in my youth I had much more theological training than political or economic; I never realized that passage dealt with the free market...

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

As much as human anger issues?

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

There is a very significant theological debate in there, which this is not the place for. Not to mention I haven't desired to be part of for over 30 years :)

[peristaltor.livejournal.com]

Not the free market per se, but certainly money changing and other banking services (specifically interest) were banned in new testament-influenced religions (Christianity and Islam) based on this passage.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

You have a point, and certainly the medieval. church did just that. I would argue, incorrectly.

Being nit picky: I would say Abrahamic religions as opposed to New Testament religions. If for no other reasons (which there are ;) ) because I've never heard Islam being called a NT religion.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Being nit picky: peristaltor didn't say it was a NT religion. He said "NT influenced." And clearly it was.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Bad phrasing on my part, because that is not what I was implying.

Not having done more than surface study of Islam which is CLEARLY OT influenced (as is Christianity) could you suggest some reading material? I am currently reading a
good history of the Arab people, and just got to Mohammad when I misplaced the book, but I did find it this week, so I will pick up again; but I don't believe it goes into an in depth origen of Islam. So if you can I'd appreciate it, thanks.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Islam & Christianity by James F. Gauss. (http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Christianity-James-F-Gauss/dp/088270611X)

[peristaltor.livejournal.com]

Jesus is a prophet in the Koran. There is influence, and one of them is toward interest, which is against strict Sharia law.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Which means what, since Jesus taught nothing on interest?

You may call it a difference without a distinction, but Sharia and Islam has it's roots in Judaism (irony?) and while I am not versed in Sharia, and am unaware of any direct Jesus influence, I would suspect if there is any, it is merely Mosaic law filtered thru Christianity.

That being said, after reading the book t-mann recommended I may re-evaluate; I haven't studied this stuff in 30 years, it's possible I'm remembering wrong ;).

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

I was not defending the falsely attributed Carter quote. I am saying that the Pope has some sort of a vague idea of what Jesus was all about and if the Pope is saying govts should be in the business of redistributing wealth, it's rather hard to swallow when someone says that what the Pope says/does has nothing to do with the words of Jesus.


And between me and Jeff, we can both agree on our disagreement with the RCC, but we can have a discussion about whether or not Jesus' message is being carried on by the Pope or not.

[geezer-also.livejournal.com]

Fair enough.

I would have to read exactly what the Pope said to decide (at least in my mind) whether or not in this particular instance he claimed the words of Jesus.

Thanks for the even-handed reply :)

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

BDJ linked to the Pope's comments (translated of course)

He does mention the story of Jesus and the rich tax collector (Zaccarahia?) in his statement leading up to the quoted part about Govts doing their part to redistribute govt benefits.

[farchivist.livejournal.com]

Even if the Pope was speaking "ex-cathedra" (which I don't believe he was) about wealth redistribution; how does this affect the non-Catholic Christians?

Heretics don't care what the Pope says, last I checked.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Ya know how the Constitution does not say anything about, oh, Tanks? Well, similarly, Jesus did not make any statements on credit default swaps, or CDO's or high-frequency trading.

But he did talk a bit about governments. Interesting that the type of economic policy it should follow didn't come up.

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

Go listen to Reza Azlan talk about Jesus for a little while. Capitalism, as an economic system, didn't really exist back then. Of course Jesus was making political statements, and political statements were intricately tied to economic statements.

You're confusing the modern era with the era that Jesus was round for.

Also, Jesus, depending on interpretation, may have been thinking the world would end in 50 years, so why bother setting up rules for good governance? The world wasn't gonna be around to use em....

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Go listen to Reza Azlan talk about Jesus for a little while.

I read his book back when it came out. Thought it was a good read in spite of his agenda in writing it.

You're confusing the modern era with the era that Jesus was round for.

And you're not?

[enders-shadow.livejournal.com]

The Pope is not bad person to look to, in order to understand, how Jesus' message may apply to the modern era.

He's not infallible, I won't say that, but I don't think it's as if he lacks knowledge of Jesus' ministry and Jesus' vision.

Are you claiming that the Pope does not inform his views based upon the teachings of Jesus?

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Are you claiming that the Pope does not inform his views based upon the teachings of Jesus?

I think this is a far cry from saying that the Pope is actually offering Jesus's point of view on certain matters.

[farchivist.livejournal.com]

The official position of the Church is that governments should practice Christian Corporatism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_corporatism). It's right there in the doctrine. Has been for over a century.