Affirmative Action Goes Down 6-2

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

It looks like the Supreme Court has subjected affirmative action to majoritarian politics, which is always a great way to protect minority interests.

Wire.com

New York Times

Comments

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

I don't know how to make you see on this point, since you also don't see how it can hurt minorities to allow businesses to deny them service.

Odd that you think that the second part is my point of view.

There's plenty of debate as to whether affirmative action is a good outcome for minorities on a whole. That's wholly irrelevant to the case at hand, which had to do with the ability of the population to keep race-based policies out of state law and out of public activity. The ramifications of this law works in all directions.

I'll try one more time. If all races were equal in public esteem to begin with, then there might be something in what you say, about not having any racial preferences. However, when you have a majority population that is prejudiced against politically weaker races, then you need to be able to counter that to insure a just society

This is all well and good, but this is also a policy issue that isn't relevant to the case decided yesterday, no matter how much Sotomayor wants it to be.

Whether all races are "equal in public esteem" does not change the fact that governments should not be making race-based policy, and cannot from a Constitutional standpoint.

Alas, that correction is going by the wayside, and we are reverting to a pre-1960s Jim Crowism, where minorities cannot vote, cannot get an education, and in your world, cannot even get served in a restaurant.

It's actually really funny that you invoke Jim Crow here, as Jim Crow laws were government actions that created race-based policies. I assume you're against Jim Crow laws, and yet you don't want to empower the people to keep the government from creating laws that discriminate based on race?

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

Odd that you think that the second part is my point of view.

So you do know that it can hurt minorities, but you just don't care, okay.

It's actually really funny that you invoke Jim Crow here, as Jim Crow laws were government actions that created race-based policies.

You may indeed find it funny, perhaps having a perverse sense of humor, but I think I have to accept that you are just willfully denying the difference between race-based policies that are used to keep races down, and race-based policies that are used to defend minorities from majoritarian racism.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

So you do know that it can hurt minorities, but you just don't care, okay.

Also not my point of view. It's not that I don't care at all, but that there are competing interests at play.

You may indeed find it funny, perhaps having a perverse sense of humor, but I think I have to accept that you are just willfully denying the difference between race-based policies that are used to keep races down, and race-based policies that are used to defend minorities from majoritarian racism.

Or, I am accepting them both as unacceptable from a policy standpoint, from a Constitutional standpoint.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

Or, I am accepting them both as unacceptable from a policy standpoint, from a Constitutional standpoint.

Don't blame the Constitution for your beliefs. It is open enough that we can have the kind of society that we want. As shown by its history, the Constitution can support such diverse and contrary policies as slavery and affirmative action, depending on the era and its people; in significant part, what it stands for is up to us. You may accept invidious racism as acceptable, but it does not really have to be that way. It's not the Constitution's fault; that is on you.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Don't blame the Constitution for your beliefs.

My beliefs are rooted in the Constitution here from a policy standpoint. This might be why you're struggling with this.

As shown by its history, the Constitution can support such diverse and contrary policies as slavery and affirmative action, depending on the era and its people

I wouldn't agree with that.

You may accept invidious racism as acceptable

I also wouldn't agree with that.

It may be worth your while to stick to what I actually believe, and not whatever fantasy you're peddling here.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

Me; You may accept invidious racism as acceptable

You: I also wouldn't agree with that.

Do you accept businessmen, say restaurateurs, denying service on the basis of race? Yes or no?

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Do you accept businessmen, say restaurateurs, denying service on the basis of race? Yes or no?

Do I accept them doing it, or do I accept their right to do so? Depending on what your question is impacts what the answer is.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

Do you accept the outcome, people being denied service because of their race? You are drawing complications to hide behind, but it is really very simple.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

I'm not really drawing complications, as the complications are already drawn and you're ignoring them. Are you asking whether I accept the outcome, or do I accept the rights exist that have outcomes that I may not prefer?

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

I only care about the outcome, not in any rationalizations that you can cook up to distance yourself from them.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

And yet you only seem to care about one outcome, as opposed to perhaps all of them. Why is that?

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

Because it's such an ugly outcome, Jeff, and as I have told you before, I know what if feels like to be diminished like that. Moreover, you may think that maybe only a few economically foolish people will do that, but I believe that's just another rationalization. I know you don't believe that racism exists anymore, or at least that is what you like to say, but that is just another reflection of your strange thought patterns.

I am nor peddling a fantasy, but I am afraid that you are lost in one.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Interesting how difficult it is to get a simple yes or no answer, isn't it?

Also, asking questions while refusing to answer previously posed questions should receive some kind of internet penalty.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

When a question is unclear, a clarification is in order. Seeing as it's not a simple yes or no as the implications are unclear...

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Because it's such an ugly outcome, Jeff, and as I have told you before, I know what if feels like to be diminished like that.

Okay, but, for the umpteenth time, there are ugly outcomes in both directions. You can favor one over the other as can I, but we're both pushing for ugly outcomes. With that reality, we have to ask which outcome is more beneficial, and, really, what outcome is more likely.

. I know you don't believe that racism exists anymore, or at least that is what you like to say, but that is just another reflection of your strange thought patterns.

Also not my position. This might actually be the root of your problem here.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

there are ugly outcomes in both directions.

Umm, what's the ugly outcome in the other direction?? Having to look at a colored person in your restaurant who isn't just mopping the floors?

Also not my position. This might actually be the root of your problem here.

You keep dancing around, which I can understand, considering how untasty some of your thoughts are, You don't recall saying that racism no longer exists in this country in this century? No the root of the problems lies elsewhere.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Umm, what's the ugly outcome in the other direction?? Having to look at a colored person in your restaurant who isn't just mopping the floors?

The ugly outcomes are many. Freedom of association in any direction. Pushback against minority-only establishments, safe space establishments, etc. Just to name a few.

I would fault you or impugn your character for disagreeing with me, but I will say that I don't believe you've thought about it quite as much as you might think.

You keep dancing around, which I can understand, considering how untasty some of your thoughts are

I'm not dancing at all, I'm simply not going to take a position that I don't hold. This isn't debate club, and I'm happy to correct you when you misstate my positions.

You don't recall saying that racism no longer exists in this country in this century?

"Racism is delegated to the fringe of society" is not "racism no longer exists."