(no subject)

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

I keep reading people who say we "must get tough" with Russia. Apart from how that is a major misread of the past 20 years of policy, it is also a very cavalier take on the potential threats of setting off a new Cold War. For those too young to recall, the Cold War was actually terrifying and on several occasions, total catastrophe was averted by single, level headed men in the exact right place.

And just in case one needs the lesson visually, here is the forum appropriate link:

Comments

[trog.livejournal.com]

In NOLA as school kids in the 70s, we practiced moving into the concrete hallways and assuming the position for tornadoes and nuclear blasts. I was a little young to be completely terrified at the prospect of nuclear armageddon, but by the time War Games came out, I got the message loud and clear. Just another way government is completely evil and a total horror show. Everything must be weaponized.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

I'm waiting for the US to weaponise cheese and bacon.

[icelore.livejournal.com]

Bacon shooting tommy gun?

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

I reckon you could get kickstarted for that idea.

[beyondfake-0.livejournal.com]

It comes in MRE's, and is a form of troop wellness-warfare.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Heh. I remember getting those tins of cheese in our MREs. We called them napalm after what happens when you throw them in the fire and sit too close.

[lafinjack.livejournal.com]

I always traded my MRE cheese for peanut butter.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Duck and cover!

Damn I feel old.

[farchivist.livejournal.com]

Oh, please, like you wouldn't use one if you had one. As a private citizen, no less.
Stop trying to convince us that Hobbes was wrong.

[trog.livejournal.com]

Also, start video at exactly 55minutes.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

Scrub ahead to 1:35:45

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

I take your point certainly, but one can let it go too far.
To play Devil's Advocate, does this mean we should
let Putin claim as many countries as he wishes, so long as he
threatens to let the nukes fly if anyone lifts a finger
against him?

I get not moving the troops and jets into Ukraine, but how
about if he likes Poland next?, to play off of one of our
earlier posts.

[malasadas.livejournal.com]

For starters? Listen to the fellow I linked to in my first link. All we keep doing is helping Putin consolidate his grip by playing to Classic Russian paranoia. While there are unsavory right wing elements in Ukraine's prostest movement and opposition party, Putin claiming Kiev was in the trip of nazis was purely playing to domestic fears and giving himself an excuse to enter eastern Ukraine if someone messes up. When jack wits like McCain go on about MORE NATO expansion on Russia's doorstep that gives Putin more paranoia to use to secure himself.

Russia's kleptocrats are deeply invested internationally. We can hurt them very quietly and THAT means they put pressure on Putin. I'd say that is a lot better than giving him more ways to stoke up the street.

[i.livejournal.com]

Poland is EU and NATO. Ukraine is neither.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

I get that it would be a further reach, but the logic
of the argument would seem to dictate that we must
be so chary of a nuclear holocaust that we dare not
confront Putin directly, no matter the claim. What are
EU and NATO but so many more lines on the map?

[i.livejournal.com]

What is the upside of "confronting" Putin, whatever that means?

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

I suppose the two stark possibilities are either
to keep a tyrant in his place, or else to watch the end of
civilization go up in mushroom clouds.

Or we can play it safe, and just let Putin take
what he wishes, and hope that internal force thwart him,
but what kind of outcome is that?

But I was taking the OP's argument to an extreme.
I doubt Putin is so mad that he intends to keep galloping
across the map. Yet, I am not so sure We have seen
this kind of thing before, but I dread to have someone invoke
Godwin.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

The U.S. has been isolating Russia for some time, this is some push back. Crimea has strong Russian ties.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

The U.S. has been isolating Russia for some time

Well, under the Soviet system it was an unapologetic totalitarian government.
Were we supposed to regard it as England or France?

Or do you mean since the fall of the wall? In which case,
I suppose we were trying to giver previously captured states
some strong ties to the democratic West, fearing that this
kind of regression in Russian governance was possible.
We're not completely shocked by what is happening.

Crimea has strong Russian ties.

Are you saying that this is justified and Russia is just taking
back what is hers?

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Russia, post-Soviet Union was seen as wounded and we took advantage in trying to make alliances with former satellites. With the entry of former Warsaw Pact nations into NATO and alliance with the EU, it put pressure on Russia to maintain influence.

What I'm saying about Crimea is that there are a lot of ties to Russia. I read something earlier about the head of the navy in Crimea declaring allegiance to Russia. It's complicated.

And we can't really go in with the stealth bombers like it's Baghdad. The Chinese probably love watching this mess.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

I think when a country annexes another country because of ethnic similarities the situation has Godwin'd itself :P

[tcpip.livejournal.com]

The Day After was picnic compared to Threads.



Or, for that matter, Nuclear War – A Guide To Armageddon

[trog.livejournal.com]

never saw threads but just looked it up and am impressed. will watch

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Threads' ending was a lot more bleak than The Day After (if that was possible). And according to Carl Sagan, Threads was the more accurate movie scientifically.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Excellent post.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Oddly, he mentioned Afghanistan, Russian's occupation at the time.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Did You Know?
On January 23, 1961, the U.S. Air Force accidentally dropped two atomic bombs on North Carolina. The bizarre incident occurred when an American B-52 went into a tailspin during a routine flight along the east coast, causing a pair of 4-megaton hydrogen bombs to dislodge and fall near the town of Goldsboro. A low-voltage safety switch was all that prevented a disaster. Had the devices been triggered, the blast would have been more than 260 times more powerful than the bomb detonated over Hiroshima.

Yikes!

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

I know someone who worked in nuclear stuff. I've heard of worse close incidents, heh.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

From http://www.nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/: and using the information from Wikipedia, here is an estimate had that one fuse failed and the one bomb detonated.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

I had no idea that Nukemap thing even existed. Cool since it never happened. I'm guessing the fallout would be widespread and nasty.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it would had drifted to SE Virginia I am pretty sure.

[op-tech-glitch.livejournal.com]

I watched TDA on a little black & white tv back in November '83, and it still freaks me out even with the copious use of stock footage in the nuclear scenes. (Just waking up the next morning with the white daylight shining through the windows/drapes was...unnerving.)

And let's not forget the not so level-headed men in exactly the wrong place back then, either. I consider myself goddamn lucky still to be alive and with my atoms still attached to one another after 8 years of that drooling idiot fuck at the switch.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/We_begin_bombing_in_five_minutes