Political Cartoons

I'm happy he is saying nice things. Can anyone demonstrate how this will effect tangible change?

A law changing. A written change in church doctrine?

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I think that gets at the heart of what is most interesting about this.
It is true that, in a sense, the pope only has the power of the bully
pulpit, but the thing is, the pope is generally held with a lot of respect
by our leaders. Accordingly, one would think that the pope's stronger
support for the poor might influence these leaders, and what is interesting
is that our leaders are turning to denounce the pope. It's like there is a
little shaking up of the elite going on.

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The last pope opposed the Iraq war to little effect.

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This class issue is broader and more fundamental to
how society works. The class war has always been
more volatile to democracies - and more dangerous
in the eyes of the elite.

Also much of world opinion was against the Iraq war.
The Bush administration was close to running renegade.

Edited Date: 2013-12-05 04:28 pm (UTC)

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Don't get me wrong, I would welcome positive change, but I am looking for something tangible. Perhaps I misunderstand.

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I see your point, but seeing how things have been going
in the old class war for the past thirty years, I would think
you might be a little excited to see some of this dust stirring
in the air. I wonder if part of this is that you cannot imagine
anything positive coming from Christianity and the Catholic
Church.

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I'm willing to accept something positive coming out of the church. But I would like to have a measure of what exactly that thing is.

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We're rattling their cages, man, we're rattle their cages! ;)

I just hope that a tragic accident doesn't befall this pope
and they recall Benedict. LOL

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Didn't he meet with Putin recently?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonium

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Heh, although Putin is no longer a commie,
I think he would still like to see the West destabilized
a bit. I'd be wary of an ambitious cardinal.

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The Vatican Air Force is pretty non existent, never mind a lot of Americans opposed the war to little effect too.

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Agreed. I recall Bush dismissing protesters and political opposition as "focus groups".

And Michael Moore saying "Anytime the Pope and the Dixie Chicks are against you, your time is up!", which was awesome, but I am fairly ignorant of the actual scope of influence the pope has. Its a sincere question.

Edited Date: 2013-12-05 09:26 pm (UTC)

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weswilson

Church doctrine on poverty is actually already pretty clear. Mostly all this pope is doing is drawing attention to existing church thoughts on economic justice. His actions aren't heretical, the actions of others within the church are.

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cindyanne1.livejournal.com

Exactly. It's like... the most Christian-ish of all basic Christian beliefs... to take care of those less fortunate among us. It's too bad so many people have gotten away from that these days.

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dexeron.livejournal.com

Not directly, but if his words and actions percolate down to the masses in the pews, and they then put pressure on representatives to address these concerns, I can see it having an effect.

Which is how it should be: indirect influence and the influence of example only, lest we adopt theocracy.

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I must admit I would prefer it be nice things said than otherwise and it being meaningful to large masses of followers is a reasonable point.

Plus its fun to watch Fox news be Anti-Pope!

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Watching Bill O'Really trying to explain why the Pope has it wrong? Priceless.

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i.livejournal.com

Leaving the Vatican at night incognito to minister to the homeless is not just saying things. It is walking the walk. It effects tangible change in individual lives. But to make you happy, I'll send Harry Potter right over with his magic wand to make everything perfect.

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fizzyland.livejournal.com

Pfft, Harry broke the Elder Wand and walked away. Send Neville over instead.

Edited Date: 2013-12-05 08:09 pm (UTC)

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Hopefully his example is followed. Its a sincere question about the expected scope of influence.

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madscience.livejournal.com

Latin America already has socialist inclinations. This could be interesting.

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It does seem a step closer to embracing liberation theology, but I thought that he opposed such as bishop, IIRC?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alejandrochafuen/2013/12/05/pope-francis-espousing-a-peronist-rather-than-a-marxist-liberation-theology/

http://ncronline.org/blogs/all-things-catholic/hard-questions-about-francis-argentina-and-lesson-chile

Edited Date: 2013-12-05 09:36 pm (UTC)

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madscience.livejournal.com

A person can be socialist and not Marxist.

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Very true.

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I'm not sure why this its so important to many liberal leaning people: unless Pope Francis changes specific church doctrines this exact minute, right now- they're not so impressed. I fully understand some of the motivation is animosity for any religious leader, or even perhaps it is some anti-Catholicism (and I don't mean you-- you're one of the most compassionate folks I know). Some of the left leaning political communities on Facebook have pushed back on the anti-Catholic sentiment and sort of warned community participants to cool their jets on the Pope Francis-hating, largely because of the statements he's made. As a world leader, the Pope is saying and doing things that are pretty unparalleled by any current political leaders in the West (e.g. “How can it be that it is not a news item when an elderly homeless person dies of exposure, but it is news when the stock market loses two points?”). Even the President doesn't make such strong statements about making it a matter of morality; the President will stop far short of that and say it's just not American). Meanwhile you have notable public conservative Catholics who are pushing back (notably Bill O'Really). But I think the speeches and writings and examples Pope Francis gives will have an impact, and he will create a climate that will hopefully lead to more changes. I use the Gorbachev analogy. When he came to power, there were a lot of skeptics about HIS changes and proposals. It finally took Maggie Thacher calling President Reagan to convince him that he was "someone we could do business with." So in what, six years we went from expecting WWIII to almost unilateral disarmament, with the USSR and USA nearly giving up all their nuclear weapons (but in the meantime, significant reductions on both sides with radical proposals for Europe, etc etc.) That's the power of an individual at the right place at the right time.

Edited Date: 2013-12-05 09:16 pm (UTC)

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Its true that when Pope's have said harmful things its not the usual first reaction to dismiss the scope of the popes influence. It is a sincere question. dex's point about the masses following his lead is good one as is your point about world stage leadership.

I think there are nods to changing the Church's stance on Liberation Theology.

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1303902.htm

http://ncronline.org/blogs/all-things-catholic/hard-questions-about-francis-argentina-and-lesson-chile

Edited Date: 2013-12-05 09:42 pm (UTC)

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One reason John Paul II came out against Liberation theology, and put his attack dog on it (i.e. Cardinal Ratzinger) was because some adherents believed violence was necessary (and they had plenty of scriptural ammunition to back that up). Remember Sophia's post and her mentioning John P. Meier? He wrote a biblical criticism of how Liberation theologians use of the New Testament to justify some of their beliefs. Fr. Meier's issues were ones of scholarship mostly.

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That is what Francis says about his position while Cardinal. He says he didn't want to advocate guerrilla rebellion.

Edited Date: 2013-12-05 10:06 pm (UTC)

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fizzyland.livejournal.com

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That is great! I guess the right-wing have been
suffering some disappointments of late.

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