I knew a couple who lived in Kabul and travelled around for a year. They were pretty cool and spoke so highly of the experience. Its hard to imagine now.
The top picture is how I remember Afghanistan from books, magazines and people who had visited the region. The Russian and American proxy war in Afghanistan was very hard on the country and they did what they had to do to survive. They adapted. The women in the bottom picture are most likely the children of the women in the top picture. They've only ever known overwhelming religion as law and their way of life.
When the Americans and Russians cleared out, I think the emergence of militantly fundamentalist Islam is more responsible for that bottom picture. That is not a necessary adaptation to even a bad war.
No, to you and I, it seems like a bad way to adapt to bad conditions. But often religious leaders fill a chaotic void when the military leaves. They are the ones who offer hope and order.
You know, there are times when I feel like that too: That I'd rather die than pretend to worship under the harsh knuckle of fundamentalists. Then I remember that I can be alone with my thoughts and often I'm happiest there. I would probably opt to survive.
Most people do what they need to do to survive. I'm glad that I've lived as long as I have without having to know that sort of difficulty.
By hope, I was referring to religion's promise of a something better in the afterlife. People seem to really love that idea.
If I believed strongly that I would pay for my apostasy in an eternal afterlife, I would probably martyr myself. But my disbelief does not require such strong actions. So I would probably 'convert' until a time when it is safe to drop my pretense of belief. It probably makes me less of a stand-up person. So it goes.
I _ABSOLUTELY_ do not think that by any measure. I think that the Pianist really made a great case for survival. However, if you see me get off'd, then yeah maybe its a good time to convert.
While you are correct to note that there were several reasons fundamentalist rose to power, the emboldening of warlords, the opium economy, and Islam all conspired in the wake of those conflicts.
"O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the faithful to draw their outergarments (jilbabs) close around themselves; that is better that they will be recognized and not annoyed. And God is ever Forgiving, Gentle." — Qur'an, Surah 33 (Al-Ahzab), Verse 59
"And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful" — Qur'an, Surah 24 (An-Nur), Verse 31
It's not like we handed the keys to the Taliban. The Americans just left, and maybe we should have stayed?, or let the Soviets continue to rule?, The Taliban, I take it, rose to power in a sort of civil war.
I'm not advocating any particular course of action the Americans could or should have taken. I'm simply pointing out that the Islamic fundamentalists would likely have remained relatively powerless if not for foreign intervention giving them the opportunity.
It IS like we handed them small arms and stinger missiles. America purposefully incited jihad to serve our side in a proxy war against Russia. While it served us well to repel the Russians, it had horrible consequences for any secular Afghans like the ones shown in the image.
We were the only ones who wanted the Russians out? We didn't direct the Taliban to do what it does, and as Phil points out, they obviously were not following our lead.
I appreciate America is not the truth, the way, and the light, but it is easy to overstate the idea of an evil America (or at least it has been the case, as I wonder more as America maybe locking up its position as just a force for the '1%').
True, many helped Pak ISI, Brits, etc. but America was the biggest. We we the ones who incited Jihad and armed the mujahadeen which became the Taliban.
they obviously were not following our lead.
They actually were. We did promote Holy War against atheist Russia. Even OBL was moved to resist with us at that time. It was our weapons they used to shoot down a civilian plane in 1985 killing 50. Ahmad Shah Massoud may have hated the Taliban, but that wasn't enough to stop them.
The spooks never accept the blame, but they sure want credit.
It's not really 'Trutherism' - The CIA and the war games that our government played against the USSR played out in ways that were unintended. It's not a conspiracy. In fact, it's just the opposite. In the '80s none of them thought that it would bite them in the ass in the '00s.
That is my point. We did not drive the Taliban. That bottom picture is not the happy realization of America's goals. We just wanted to help them to get the Russians out.
That's as insulting as you intended it to be. I didn't come up with this idea myself. Reading interviews with Mujahadeen fighters, and the 9/11 commissions report, they are fairly clear on this point.
They do argue that they followed our cues, certainly more factually than 9/11 truthers argue. We facilitated the killing of "atheist Russians" and we encouraged Jihad. We armed and trained the militant fundamentalists who would become the Taliban. What ever our toothless recommendations or preferences for women's rights we wrote down at the time, the reality is that we facilitated the force which eliminated them.
The characterization of films like "Charlie Wilson's war" get applauded, but the obvious flip side of the coin is ignored. Inciting proxy-Jihad against the Russians did have consequences. Admitting it could help us avoid making the mistake again.
You obviously do not know my intentions. Maybe I just don't take all these discussions as seriously as some of you guys. I just found the idea of a connection to Trutherism - in the idea that the Taliban is following our wishes - to be oddly amusing.
Sorry, I should have put a smiley behind that sentence.
I do strongly differentiate the assertion that 9/11 was an inside job from the assertion that we helped to create the Taliban we see today.
I also don't grant much benefit of intention or doubt when it comes to weapons and death. If you light a match in a room full of gasoline, I don't blame the gasoline.
Those warlords had a civil war after we were gone, and we had no direction in that, nor do I think we had a mandate to go back in and settle it in a way that would be more to our liking. We cannot control what others do, even if they do it with some of our money and our weapons.
"When a woman goes swimming, as the word for sea is masculine, when "the water touches the woman's private parts, she becomes an 'adulteress' and should be punished."
"Another fatwa prohibited women from "eating certain vegetables or even touching cucumbers or bananas", due to their phallic imagery which could lead women down the wrong path."
"Another fatwa directed women to "turn off the air conditioners at home in the absence of their husbands as this could indicate to a neighbour that the woman is at home alone and any of them could commit adultery with her"."
"Another fatwa orders that girls as young as 10-years-old be married "to prevent them from deviating from the right path"."
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2013-12-03 11:02 pm (UTC)I never would have guessed it.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-03 11:08 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 01:57 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 04:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 05:27 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 05:58 pm (UTC)I would rather die.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 07:17 pm (UTC)Most people do what they need to do to survive. I'm glad that I've lived as long as I have without having to know that sort of difficulty.
By hope, I was referring to religion's promise of a something better in the afterlife. People seem to really love that idea.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 07:39 pm (UTC)That aint me. If I get shot refusing to get a on a train car or put my head in a bag, you know what's coming.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 09:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 11:11 pm (UTC)I _ABSOLUTELY_ do not think that by any measure. I think that the Pianist really made a great case for survival. However, if you see me get off'd, then yeah maybe its a good time to convert.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 05:30 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-05 02:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-05 03:47 pm (UTC)"O Prophet! Say to your wives and your daughters and the women of the faithful to draw their outergarments (jilbabs) close around themselves; that is better that they will be recognized and not annoyed. And God is ever Forgiving, Gentle."
— Qur'an, Surah 33 (Al-Ahzab), Verse 59
"And say to the faithful women to lower their gazes, and to guard their private parts, and not to display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their headcoverings (khimars) to cover their bosoms (jaybs), and not to display their beauty except to their husbands, or their fathers, or their husband's fathers, or their sons, or their husband's sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their womenfolk, or what their right hands rule (slaves), or the followers from the men who do not feel sexual desire, or the small children to whom the nakedness of women is not apparent, and not to strike their feet (on the ground) so as to make known what they hide of their adornments. And turn in repentance to Allah together, O you the faithful, in order that you are successful"
— Qur'an, Surah 24 (An-Nur), Verse 31
no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 06:01 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 06:09 pm (UTC)and maybe we should have stayed?, or let the Soviets continue to rule?,
The Taliban, I take it, rose to power in a sort of civil war.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 06:26 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 06:52 pm (UTC)It IS like we handed them small arms and stinger missiles. America purposefully incited jihad to serve our side in a proxy war against Russia. While it served us well to repel the Russians, it had horrible consequences for any secular Afghans like the ones shown in the image.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 07:04 pm (UTC)Not to mention those two towers that aren't in NYC anymore.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 07:10 pm (UTC)We didn't direct the Taliban to do what it does, and as Phil
points out, they obviously were not following our lead.
I appreciate America is not the truth, the way, and the light,
but it is easy to overstate the idea of an evil America (or at
least it has been the case, as I wonder more as America maybe
locking up its position as just a force for the '1%').
no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 07:35 pm (UTC)they obviously were not following our lead.
They actually were. We did promote Holy War against atheist Russia. Even OBL was moved to resist with us at that time. It was our weapons they used to shoot down a civilian plane in 1985 killing 50. Ahmad Shah Massoud may have hated the Taliban, but that wasn't enough to stop them.
The spooks never accept the blame, but they sure want credit.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 08:07 pm (UTC)Yes_Justice: They actually were.
I think I am seeing another road to Trutherism.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 09:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 09:30 pm (UTC)picture is not the happy realization of America's goals. We just
wanted to help them to get the Russians out.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 09:42 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 09:27 pm (UTC)That's as insulting as you intended it to be. I didn't come up with this idea myself. Reading interviews with Mujahadeen fighters, and the 9/11 commissions report, they are fairly clear on this point.
They do argue that they followed our cues, certainly more factually than 9/11 truthers argue. We facilitated the killing of "atheist Russians" and we encouraged Jihad. We armed and trained the militant fundamentalists who would become the Taliban. What ever our toothless recommendations or preferences for women's rights we wrote down at the time, the reality is that we facilitated the force which eliminated them.
The characterization of films like "Charlie Wilson's war" get applauded, but the obvious flip side of the coin is ignored. Inciting proxy-Jihad against the Russians did have consequences. Admitting it could help us avoid making the mistake again.
More:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/terror-blowback-burns-cia-1182087.html
http://www.theguardian.com/uk/2005/jul/08/july7.development
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1670089.stm
http://williamblum.org/chapters/killing-hope/afghanistan
no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 09:33 pm (UTC)You obviously do not know my intentions. Maybe I just don't take all these discussions as seriously as some of you guys. I just found the idea of a connection to Trutherism - in the idea that the Taliban is following our wishes - to be oddly amusing.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 09:39 pm (UTC)I do strongly differentiate the assertion that 9/11 was an inside job from the assertion that we helped to create the Taliban we see today.
I also don't grant much benefit of intention or doubt when it comes to weapons and death. If you light a match in a room full of gasoline, I don't blame the gasoline.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-07 10:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-07 10:28 pm (UTC)and we had no direction in that, nor do I think we
had a mandate to go back in and settle it in a way
that would be more to our liking. We cannot control
what others do, even if they do it with some of our money
and our weapons.
no subject
Date: 2013-12-08 12:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-03 11:52 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-03 11:57 pm (UTC)Here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mishmaoul/10494747474/in/photostream/lightbox/
And:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mishmaoul/10494751794/in/photostream/lightbox/
no subject
Date: 2013-12-05 08:53 am (UTC)"When a woman goes swimming, as the word for sea is masculine, when "the water touches the woman's private parts, she becomes an 'adulteress' and should be punished."
"Another fatwa prohibited women from "eating certain vegetables or even touching cucumbers or bananas", due to their phallic imagery which could lead women down the wrong path."
"Another fatwa directed women to "turn off the air conditioners at home in the absence of their husbands as this could indicate to a neighbour that the woman is at home alone and any of them could commit adultery with her"."
"Another fatwa orders that girls as young as 10-years-old be married "to prevent them from deviating from the right path"."
no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 12:20 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2013-12-04 05:05 am (UTC)In the picture on the top, the girl int he middle appears to be grinning like the Ridiculously Photogenic Guy.
(just with nicer legs)
no subject
Date: 2013-12-06 09:46 am (UTC)