Hmm

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

Somebody just doesn't get white-male privilege? Or is there a stronger point: one should not be harsh to anyone, not even whites, men, nor even Christians or libertarians?

Comments

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

But what about the argument for the high road that says we shouldn't take shots at the privileged, either, that they are, after all, humans?

[wight1984.livejournal.com]

Seems fair, but no need to make that point by pretending that all insults are equal.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

But I'm also thinking: wouldn't this high road take all 'the funny' out of the world, or at least much of it?

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Social justice warriors lack the basic understanding of humor, so they have no context of what's being lost.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

I don't mind if the 'social justice warriors' manage to carve out some safe places, in which everyone must be on their absolutely best behavior, where never a suggestively ill word is said against anybody else, but I sure do hope we maintain a strong 'free speech' rule overall in this country. I like having forums where we can be a little raw.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

As do I. But those sorts of closed-down forums are where I've seen this posted before. It's a criticism of the culture (or, as put in the OP, ignoring the concept of "white privilege") by people who have made a hobby of shouting down those who hold incorrect viewpoints about issues of race and gender relations.

[macychick.livejournal.com]

My way of thinking is that it's okay to be politically incorrect at home with your family and friends; but out in public you have to be politically correct.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

There's being respectful around your intended (and unintended) audience, and then there's the bullying callout culture (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/oct/18/online-bullying-ugly-sport-liberal-commenters) that tries to police that respectful appropriateness. This comic is more about the latter than the former.

[macychick.livejournal.com]

I hear you. People like that are the very reason why I was either kicked out or voluntarily left several different feminist communities online. In one such comm, I was actually called racist for saying that it was okay to be politically incorrect at home with your family and friends.

[senshifan.livejournal.com]

I think even just around family and friends there's a line that should never be crossed.

For instance, if a white person was to say a racist joke around other white people and they all laughed, it would be seen as okay. But if that joke made one of them uncomfortable, then a fight could ensue.

Now, as a pagan black female, I've had some really good laughs at racist, sexist, and religious jokes. But that still doesn't make them okay; especially when the people around you could be unprepared for it.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

it's okay to be politically incorrect at home with your family and friends

Shouldn't we have greater leeway than that, such as comedy night clubs, for instance? Do we really want our movies and books to be scrubbed for only the most sensitive expressions? Surely, some of the Internet should be free-speech fire zones. Though, I appreciate that, on the Internet, we have enough forums that go way over any generally accepted lines - the true hate stuff. But, in priniciple.

[badlydrawnjeff.livejournal.com]

Look at the reaction to Seth Macfarlane at the Oscars. The answer is yes, many do want a scrubbed culture.

[hardblue.livejournal.com]

The Oscars, though, are such a universal event that I can see that being made airtight, as much as I might start watching the Oscars again if it could be more raucous. I tend to avoid network TV altogether, because it is so antiseptic.

[macychick.livejournal.com]

Eh, the Oscars is a very different venue than a late night comedy show. I'd put the Oscars in the category of "places where you have to be politically correct" and late night comedy shows in "places where it's okay to be politically incorrect."

[op-tech-glitch.livejournal.com]

Eddie Murphy was once asked about something similar to this by Barbara Walters, and told her, "You know when it's in bad taste? When it's not funny."

As I have for the past 15 or so years found the ongoing oeuvre of Seth MacFarlane to be approximately as "funny" and entertaining as watching somebody's disabled grandmother get kicked down a flight of stairs, I'd say Eddie couldn't have summed it up any better than he did.

[lafinjack.livejournal.com]

He also got that reaction because most of it wasn't funny.

[macychick.livejournal.com]

Shouldn't we have greater leeway than that, such as comedy night clubs, for instance?

Yeah, you're right about that.

[dexeron.livejournal.com]

The thing is, no one's really saying comedians don't have the right to make jokes; but we all have the right to judge them as horrible human beings based on what they say. Applying a label of "comedy" or "satire" doesn't make something terrible suddenly and magically "ok".

Thing is, it's not about sanitizing or censoring or scrubbing everything. It's about pointing out "Hey, making a pretty obviously racist generalization ISN'T funny, and your being a comedian doesn't excuse you from that." That doesn't mean race (or other sensitive subjects) can't be the subject of comedy. But a good guide is to go by that old saying "punch up, not down." Take shots at the status quo, at established power structures. Don't take shots at the marginalized. So, for example, yea, make fun of society, its gender roles, even the way we deal with sexual assault. Don't, like Daniel Tosh, make jokes about rape and respond to someone getting offended by saying that the offendee deserves to be raped. That's not comedy, it's not funny, and while it may well be his right to "free speech", it's MY right to free speech to call him a piece of shit.

One thing that seems to always be forgotten is that criticizing someone's speech is ITSELF free speech. The folks who so loudly complain when others criticize something hateful they said seem to forget that complaining isn't the same thing as censoring. And while I agree with you about the "principle" you're espousing, far too often I see this demand for free speech used by folks who are angry that they just can't say the hateful things they used to without someone calling them out on it. I'm not accusing YOU of this, but for a lot of folks, there's a little bit of dishonesty at play here: it's not really an issue of "sanitizing" culture; it's that their old privilege of getting to say every lizard-brained urge that popped into their head without regard to who it affected has been taken away, so now they feel "oppressed", as if taking a moment to have a bit of consideration for other folks before opening one's mouth is just so terribly inconvenient. I don't like censorship, but I don't buy these folks' objections. They're free to say whatever the hell they want: the rest of us are free to dismiss them as soon as they demonstrate exactly how little, beyond hate, they have to offer.

[wight1984.livejournal.com]

"Shouldn't we have greater leeway than that, such as comedy night clubs, for instance?"

The other important distinction is between 'People shouldn't tell racist jokes' and 'people shouldn't be allowed to tell racist jokes'.

There's a considerable gap between the two; I'll condemn racist humour, but that doesn't mean I want to see it criminalised.

[rowsdowerisms.livejournal.com]

Who are these social justice types shouting down others?

Check out this dude destroying classical and contemporary liberalism using his inside voice!

[johnny9fingers.livejournal.com]

This is quite brilliant, and so is Dr. Mills. I'm borrowing this for my blog.

[dexeron.livejournal.com]

That a huge challenge in othersise nominally "liberal" spheres such as the skeptical community. Look at the huge backlash against the idea of an "atheism +" movement (meaning adding questions of social justice to the mainstream atheist movements, addressing more concerns than just debunking bigfoot and religions), or the hatred in response to even just the basic statement of: "we could do more to address the concerns of, and recruit the interest of, people of color and other minorities."

What Mills is saying is very easy to respond to defensively, and that's almost instinctive for most of us who have been so ingrained with the status-quo, but it's neccesary to surpress that instinct and actually listen, because UNDERSTANDING these things is the way we can then move forward and avoid the pitfalls CAUSED by what he describes.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

All you have to do is put on skinny jeans, black rimmed glasses and acknowledge your privilege, then all of your racist jokes are ironic!

[wight1984.livejournal.com]

"But I'm also thinking: wouldn't this high road take all 'the funny' out of the world, or at least much of it? "

Nah.

A broad sense of humour can survive a few bits being clipped off anyway, but I'm not sure that's necessary.

In many ways, this is about when people aren't laughing. If I make a joke about you, and you don't find it funny, then the joke failed. If I make a joke to someone else about you, and they laugh but you find out and they're sad, then all the good in the humour is cancelled out by your sadness.

However, if we're just good friends engaging in casual mockery of each other, and we both laugh and no one is offended, then that's fine.

Also; whilst I try to avoid bigoted humour, I don't avoid humour about bigotry. I think there's a difference there.

[macychick.livejournal.com]

THIS.

I know a Jewish man and an Italian-American man who have been best friends for years. The Jewish man sometimes jokes that the Italian is secretly in the Mafia; while the Italian jokes about his friend's Jewish nose. They both think it's funny and no one is offended. Neither the Jewish nor the Italian jokes are intended to be racist; but more of "we're so comfortable with each other that nothing is taboo." They both completely understand that if they were to make those kind of jokes in a different context, it would NOT be okay.
That's an example of what I meant about "it's okay among friends and family."