(no subject)

[atheistkathleen.livejournal.com]

Comments

[unnamed525.livejournal.com]

I've decided that life begins, not at conception, but when the fetus can live outside the womb without things like artificial respiration.

[drivebyluna.livejournal.com]

I have a similar feeling, but at the same time if we all followed that standard then access to late term abortions would be even more reduced and I don't like that either.

[chron-job.livejournal.com]

that's close to the idea "Life begins at Viability."

Of course, its an arbitrary line... but then, all such lines here are arbitrary.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Of course, its an arbitrary line... but then, all such lines here are arbitrary.

Well both sides on the issue make it an either or and make extreme positions because to be intellectually consistent, they will not hedge an inch on any slippery slope. The Supreme Court got it mostly right with Roe vs. Wade and relied on science in that decision. Carl Sagan wrote about that extensively and I agree with the rationale laid out.

[spaz-own-joo.livejournal.com]

Y'know what? I don't even believe that fetuses aren't people. They sorta are, and I think society is best served by empowering pregnant women to kill them if they want anyway.

Personhood is treated like this all-or-nothing binary proposition and I don't think it works that way; I think it's a cumulative quality. I think a newborn baby is more of a person than a 6-month fetus, but I also think a 2-year-old is more of a person than a newborn. Apparently this is a weird thing to think.

[iron-valkyrie.livejournal.com]

No, I kind of have the same belief.

[iron-valkyrie.livejournal.com]

Which isn't to say that I don't think weird things or whatever, LOL. But when it comes to young children, I definitely think like that. It's hard to define, but it makes sense to me. /shrug

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

There's a reason why in many cultures both past and present you didn't name children until they were 1 (or 3 or 5).

[wight1984.livejournal.com]

I'd agree that there's something problematic about a binary notion of personhood but that presumably just raises the question of 'What is Personhood?' doesn't it? Presumably what would settle the issue is if we had some sense of what the criteria for personhood is.

[wight1984.livejournal.com]

I can't help feel that we start off with a red herring when we're talking about 'life'.

Embryos and foetuses are obviously alive, but so are animals and plants.

I'd have said a sensible starting place is identifying what the essential difference between us as beings with a right to life and other beings that lack a right to life is. Once we've worked out what the criteria for a right to life is, then we can work out whether embryos and foetuses match up.

People will either have to come up with a nakedly religious answer ('possession of a soul') or start talking about sentience or some such.

[macychick.livejournal.com]

People will either have to come up with a nakedly religious answer ('possession of a soul')

Correct. And it is unconstitutional when we try to legislate our religious beliefs and force them on others. That's why, even though I'm Catholic and believe abortion is a sin, I'm pro-choice when it comes to politics.

[lilenth.livejournal.com]

it is a red herring, even if a fetus has a right to life? It does not have the right to force anyone to be it's life support, because no human being has that right. If either of us got sick and needed a kidney transplant to get better, we don't get to demand someone give us a kidney because the use of the body of another human being to improve our health or to keep us alive is not a human right.

Most abortions involve removing the fetal sac and letting nature take it's course.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

What a dumb analogy.

[catlin.livejournal.com]

And yet it is a true one.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

You think so. I don't.

[wight1984.livejournal.com]

I think there's some mileage in the 'What rights does a foetus have over the mother's body' issue but... yeah, the kidney donation analogy is god-awful.

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Thanks, I'm pro choice, but some of the speculations and opinions on this post are cringe worthy (especially the edgy one about "person-hood" as the benchmark).

Scary shit

[wight1984.livejournal.com]

There may be some merit in the point but the analogy is very weak; the relationship between a person with renal failure and a potential donor isn't at all similar that of a foetus and the person carrying the foetus, nor is the act of abortion similar to kidney donation.

For the analogy to be at all strong we'd have to imagine a world where foetuses occurred independently of potential mothers and, in order to save their lives, we had to perform surgery in order to implant the foetus into the womb.

If that was the case and we assumed that a foetus had personhood then having a foetus implanted might be vaguely similar to donating a kidney. It's only vaguely so because I don't think that letting something grow in you is really very similar to giving away part of yourself, but they do still share the traits of being (a) a significant personal sacrifice to one's health and (b) something most people would find morally praiseworthy but not morally obligatory.

But that's not the world we live in. Instead, you're comparing an operation to implant someone else's organ into your own body against an operation to remove something that naturally occured within your own body.

Not saying the issue of 'what rights do the foetus have regarding the mother's body' isn't an important issue worthy discussing, or that the position 'the foetus does not have a right to the mother's body' is false, just that the kidney donation analogy is weak.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Embryos and foetuses are obviously alive, but so are animals and plants.


I've said it once and I'll say it again: VEGETARIANISM IS MURDER!!!

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Both of which are part of the argument social conservatives try to make to ban abortion under any and all conditions. Cons got made at Akin because well, you're not supposed to air your crazy to the public. Even John McCain made scare quotes around 'Health of the mother' as if that was an imaginary consideration.

[fizzyland.livejournal.com]

Also, don't you dare ask the government for any social services to support those children you were forced to birth - that's the punishment you deserve for having sex.

Handouts are for corporations and sex is for married people, just as Gawd intended.

[plumtreeblossom.livejournal.com]

I sense a surge in the popularity of oral and anal sex in 3...2...1...

[macychick.livejournal.com]

Handouts are for corporations and sex is for married people, just as Gawd intended.

Still doesn't explain why they oppose abortion even when a MARRIED woman's life is in danger.
Or why they oppose contraception even when a MARRIED woman and her husband don't want to have any more children than the 2.5 they already have. Or if (GASP) they don't want to have any at all!

[iron-valkyrie.livejournal.com]

....what.

[catlin.livejournal.com]

Because if you keep her barefoot and pregnant, she won't try to Think, and a man can always get another wife.

[macychick.livejournal.com]

Not in this country he can't- at least not without divorcing his first wife, and he'll still have to support the children he had with her- and the people who are opposed to contraception are also opposed to divorce for religoius reasons.

[atheistkathleen.livejournal.com]

i thought mormons could have multiple wives

[macychick.livejournal.com]

Not anymore- and even when they could, they were never legally recognized by the state

[mamculuna.livejournal.com]

We put them in prison--much more expensive than supporting and educating, but somebody's gotta make a profit.

[red-pill.livejournal.com]

i read a blog, by a christian, and it kinda made this point. outlawing abortion if you belive that raped women cant get pregnenet is not nearly as terrble as outlawing it in all cases if you do. the formers is wrong and shitty, but the later takes up a notch.

stupidity is no defence, but people will be kinder to you for it. after all, how could you know better. if you do know better on the other hand...

[macychick.livejournal.com]

stupidity is no defence, but people will be kinder to you for it.

Only if you acknowledge that you were incorrect. If you insist that you were right after gazillions of people have proved you wrong, they'll be anything less than kind.

[red-pill.livejournal.com]

kinder.

on this issue, it might be a move from utter murder to mere beating and leaving in a gutter bloody and unmoving. kinder isnt the same as kind...

[wight1984.livejournal.com]

"stupidity is no defence, but people will be kinder to you for it. after all, how could you know better. if you do know better on the other hand... "

I'd agree that being a good person who does bad things out of stupidity is better than a genuinely immoral person.

However, I also tend to respect people more who are wrong for intelligent reasons rather than wrong for stupid reasons.

There are also times when I'd rather be around an intelligent amoral person than a blundering idiot with good intentions.

I'm not sure whether either sentiment applies in this case though. I don't really have much basis to make an assessment of good character or intelligence for either of the people in the comic.

[macychick.livejournal.com]

I believe Akin's view is more disturbing because it is false.
Ryan's view, while disturbing, is nothing more than his opinion, and he has the right to freely express it even if it makes him sound like an ass and costs him and Romney the election. Heck, I'm ALL for Ryan expressing his opinion here if that's what it takes for Romney to lose!

[caerfrli.livejournal.com]

Forcing rape victims to carry their attackers child is abhorrent. That said, if someone believes a fetus is a human being and believes that abortion is murder, he is edging toward genocide if he then says it's ok to murder the fetus because it's a rapist's. Abortion right should be unrestricted, not determined by a politician's opinion of the prospective parents.

[the-rukh.livejournal.com]

Maybe we should let the mother decide her opinion on it. :P