Political Cartoons

well shoot we might as well release the photos now

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Also is that the worn look or something, since when does fresh paint look like that lol

Of course it's Pakistan, I suppose people think everything in the middle east has to have a layer of grunge to it. As a sort of rule maybe.

Edited Date: 2011-05-14 05:42 pm (UTC)

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Only an American would think that Pakistan is in the Middle East.

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semantics... Middle East, Near East, that place between Iran and China. at least I don't think all of the Muslim world looks like shit all the time.

Besides, why isn't the Middle East called the Near West?

Edited Date: 2011-05-14 07:48 pm (UTC)

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Technically it is.

More here. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East)

Edited Date: 2011-05-14 10:46 pm (UTC)

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_east

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Interestingly enough we are sending each other to the same place for reference.

Well, let's see.
Middle East extends from Egypt trough Iran. Iran being the easternmost country included in the Middle East.

Now, there is such a thing as Greater Middle East. The Greater Middle East is not the same as the Middle East. Also the idea and the term of Greater Middle East comes from Bush administration. I hope you are not expecting me to subscribe to geographical and geopolitical consents of those fuckheads.

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Actually the link shows how varied the term has been used for over 100 years. So splitting hairs is a historical mixed bag. But the point is, the original comment wasn't all that outrageous.

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Varied the term may have been, but in all variations never included Pakistan, except by Dulles - yet another brainiac.

You are correct, however - .the original comment wasn't all that outrageous. It was sadly typical.

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The term "Middle East" may have originated in the 1850s in the British India Office.However, it became more widely known when American naval strategist Alfred Thayer Mahan used the term in 1902 to 'designate the area between Arabia and India'.

Pakistan is west of India, so it fits that definition.

and

Until World War II, it was customary to refer to areas centered around Turkey and the eastern shore of the Mediterranean as the "Near East", while the "Far East" centered on China, and the Middle East then meant the area from Mesopotamia to Burma, namely the area between the Near East and the Far East.

Middle East is a relatively modern (and Eurocentric), and its definitions are fluid historically. The original use of including Pakistan as "Middle Eastern" country was not wrong.

Edited Date: 2011-05-14 11:50 pm (UTC)

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Well, the first quotation seems to be supporting my point, not yours - Pakistan was not considered as a part of Meddle East by Alfred Thayer Mahan.

The second quotation, still in need of citation, is imminently followed by reference to the Brits setting up their Middle East Command in what everybody else calls Near East. How very inconsistent of them.

"It's a modern term and its definitions are fluid. The original use was not wrong."
The term is fairly modern, but not so modern as to include Pakistan, contrary to the seemingly accepted practice. The original use by rimpala, which I protested, had no connotation of being traditional, that is pre-WWII). The whole historical angle is thus moot..

So there.

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You said: Pakistan was not considered as a part of Meddle East by Alfred Thayer Mahan.

Better reread that: Alfred Thayer Mahan used the term in 1902 to 'designate the area between Arabia and India' Again, Pakistan is west of India.

The second quotation, still in need of citation, is imminently

You meant immediately, but.... followed by reference to the Brits setting up their Middle East Command in what everybody else calls Near East. How very inconsistent of them.

Righto. That goes to the fluid nature of the definitions being used.

The term is fairly modern, but not so modern as to include Pakistan, contrary to the seemingly accepted practice.

Actually I've shown that several times in plain English.

The original use by rimpala, which I protested, had no connotation of being traditional, that is pre-WWII). Doesn't matter. You objected to modern use of "Greater Middle East" too. We get it, you don't agree :-)

The whole historical angle is thus moot..

Russians say that a lot. :-)

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"Again, Pakistan is west of India."

Look, if you can't understand that there was no Pakistan in 1902, that there was only India starting right east of Iran, then my repeating it over and over will probably not help.

"Russians say that a lot."

Regardless what they may or may not say and how much, the argument stands. It's irrelevant what was understood by 'Middle East' from the dawn of civilization. The only important thing here is what is understood by this term today. You have produced no evidence that Pakistan is customarily or justifiably included in the Middle East by anybody. The only moron of late who associates Pakistan with the Middle East is Bush W. but even he has enough sense to amend it with "greater".

I'm afraid you are not saying anything new at this point, so please excuse me until you come up with a better idea than just rehashing the same nonsense.

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The only important thing here is what is understood by this term today.

Says you. Then you ignore those instances where it encompassed Pakistan, and decide for whatever reasons that WW2 was some important date of demarcation.

Look, if you can't understand that there was no Pakistan in 1902, that there was only India starting right east of Iran, then my repeating it over and over will probably not help.

Doesn't matter, as the other quote mentioned said the British considered the Middle East to include India eastward to Burma.

I'm afraid you are not saying anything new at this point, so please excuse me until you come up with a better idea than just rehashing the same nonsense.

You first ;)

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OK, this seems to have deteriorated into "Says you" and "You first".

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Please do not edit your replays in such a substantial way or I'll have serious doubts that you mean no foul play.

"Pakistan is west of India, so it fits that definition."
Well, as an American, not only you display scanty knowledge of geography, but, evidently, of history too. There was no Pakistan in existence back in 1902. Pakistan was a part of British India as one country and one people until 1947. It is largely an artificial division engineered by the departing Brits as a farewell "fuck you".

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In that case Pakistan would be India.

I admit that I maybe should have said Near East, or Muslim World.

Formal Mongolian Empire maybe?

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"Formal Mongolian Empire maybe?"
Maybe former then.

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Oh I knew it, but Pakistan was an autonomous region even within India under British rule, political entities were and quite historically different: which is why Pakistan and India separated in the 1940s after the British pulled out. Just like "Middle East" and "Near East," as I mentioned earlier- India could be either a geographical area or a political entity. The other quote I mentioned as well demonstrated that fluctuation by extending the term "Middle East" to include even India eastward to Burma.

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OK, this becoming plain ridiculous.

"Pakistan was an autonomous region even within India"
I have no idea what autonomy you are talking about, There was no Pakistan as such. Pakistan was formed from several whole and partial provinces. So which one was oh-so-autonomous?
One couldn't even talk about Pakistan before 1947. There was no such thing. This is yet another reason that saying things like "Pakistan and India separated" is plain ludicrous. The only reason I used this wording is to simplify it for you, ablate in vain.

"India could be either a geographical area or a political entity."
SRSLY? And why not a country? Isn't there one today? Let's not get too deep in political science here and introduce irrelevant consents. It's not necessary. By the year 1902 Baluchistan was incorporated into British India as a province, leaving Alfred Thayer Mahan no "geographical area or a political entity" to refer to but India itself. And that's exactly what he did: drew the border of the Middle East between Iran and India - two neighboring countries at that time.

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lol.

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yes-justice.livejournal.com

It was sadly typical.

In the context of the original post, I doubt the sincerity of this sadness.

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You caught me being insincere.

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That's not all.

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