(no subject)

[texas-reddmann.livejournal.com]

But they got such valuable data...like everything they needed to break up an attack plot that they had already broken up...

Oops.

Comments

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Right on.



Believe me, Its Torture (http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808).

[texas-reddmann.livejournal.com]

I only ever had limited survival training or resistance briefings. I never had to go through SERE. And I'm forever grateful.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

The longer term effects is something I hadn't really seen discussed much, the Hitchens demonstration highlighted that for me.

Are you UK or US?

I have a marine friend and the night time water exercises sounded horrific to me.

[texas-reddmann.livejournal.com]

I'm in the US, former US Navy. And yes, a lot of their exercises are pretty harsh, but while they do suck, they don't qualify as torture. Just toughening up. Hell, I don't think the SERE program even includes waterboarding anymore

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

The language is so strange. Hell, I'd call using a chemical explosion to rip lead through someones torso a chemical weapon, but then...

I don't know about the military, but I'd sign up for some MK-Ultra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MKULTRA) action.

/snark

I've met another soldier who doesn't think torture is a good idea. Funny that...

[mylaptopisevil.livejournal.com]

they don't qualify as torture

isn't this only because they consent to it being done so they're better prepared for it later?

[texas-reddmann.livejournal.com]

1). SERE stopped using waterboarding in training due to the harm it was causing. Trainees are briefed on it and shown various A/V examples of it, and taught what few methods are even remotely effective against it, but not subjected to it as a matter of training anymore.

2). The harsher methods of torture demonstrated by SERE aren't used to torture the troops, they are used to train them in what to expect. The troop in question can halt the exercise at any time, but will know what to expect and hopefully how to deal with it. The prisoners we tortured didn't have that opportunity.

[mylaptopisevil.livejournal.com]

The harsher methods of torture demonstrated by SERE aren't used to torture the troops, they are used to train them in what to expect. The troop in question can halt the exercise at any time, but will know what to expect and hopefully how to deal with it. The prisoners we tortured didn't have that opportunity.

Yeah, that's what I was trying to say. But I didn't know waterboarding was taken completely out of SERE because it was that bad.

[borgseawolf.livejournal.com]

Surely though by about 50th time on the same guy, the impact is slightly lessened?

"Look, we've been through this fifty times, I KNOW you're not going to drown me this time..."

[texas-reddmann.livejournal.com]

No, it doesn't work that way. Drowning is one of the few things that, no matter how your mind thinks about it, you just can't override the fear and dread that subconsciously grips you. Part of the appeal of this method to torturers is that fact. No matter what you think when it starts, your body won't let you not react. It's that reaction that people have, can't stand, and can't control that breaks them. Sooner or later, anyone will break and they'll say anything to make it stop.

And by anything, it'll be whatever they think they're tormentors want to hear, and most often it's not the truth but what they think their torturer will believe is the truth.

[xforge.livejournal.com]

Dustin Hoffman in Marathon Man. "Yes, it's safe; it's very safe. No, no it's not safe at all."

[johnny9fingers.livejournal.com]

It seems a fact that false positives are thrown up by all forms of torture: and is why it is so unreliable. Which has nothing to do with the moral arguments.

[texas-reddmann.livejournal.com]

I can't even begin to find any reason why someone decided to ignore that fact that makes any semblance of sense.

Condi Rice....who'd have thought she was the jackboots and whip type, hey?

Almost explains why she got the job....and that smile Dick Cheney always seemed to have plastered on his face....

[lafinjack.livejournal.com]

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=448717

[xforge.livejournal.com]

Don't need any of that; all we need is the plain fact that we prosecuted Japanese soldiers for war crimes when they did it to our guys. I mean, double ()#$&)&(ing standard much?

[texas-reddmann.livejournal.com]

Although I fully agree with that, I still think the demonstration of why it sucks will help get the point across...

I don't care what the politicians and their lawyers say, it's torture, not enhanced *!@$ing interrogation.

Call it what it is, fucktards.

[xforge.livejournal.com]

As if "enhanced interrogation" doesn't sound like bullcrap doublespeak. Good God.

This is after all the administration that gave us "No Child Left Behind," whose purpose is to leave children behind if they don't pass a standardized test created by someone who gave a politician a lot of money.

[texas-reddmann.livejournal.com]

Both the decision to use torture and its new name: Brought to you by one of the children left behind after repeatedly failing standardized testing...

[adrunkencadence.livejournal.com]

The US also did it in the Viet Nam war/"policing conflict".

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Yep. And we hung them (http://crooksandliars.com/david-neiwert/correction-we-actually-did-execute-j).

[jlc20thmaine.livejournal.com]

I'll wait fo the cartoon that shows Pelosi and other top dems were briefed on all this.

[texas-reddmann.livejournal.com]

Republicans: "We told her we were doing it!"
Dems/Pelosi: "We were told they were looking into it, but not that they were doing it."

Personally, while I wouldn't put it past her to be stretching the truth, neither would I them. Odds are, both are lying about what they knew, and how they were told.

Also: One interview I saw included a bit that said the information was downloaded to the dems. Downloaded? Mixed in with how much other useless information that you knew they wouldn't read?

If she did know, and that too should be looked into by law enforcement, she deserves public ridicule at least.

And yet, those who decided to do it, set it up, and did it all need jail time.

[xforge.livejournal.com]

Hmm, let me think. Who's worse, the people who were told that someone is torturing someone...

OR THE PEOPLE ACTUALLY DOING THE TORTURING??

Oh I dunno, let's all cogitate on that for a while.

you're a fucking idiot

[drivebyluna.livejournal.com]

I believe both have a moral responsibility.

If I see a guy getting the shit kicked out of him by a group of people, I still have a moral responsibility to get the cops or call someone for help. If I stand there and do absolutely nothing, I'm culpable, which makes me just as bad as those in the group.

[xforge.livejournal.com]

Sure okay, but not "just as bad." You're guilty of something but the person doing the shit-kicking is the main offender.

[drivebyluna.livejournal.com]

I disagree.

[texas-reddmann.livejournal.com]

Were it me, I'd be less likely to put them all to the same accounting. In this case, if you stood there and watched, you deserve large amounts of public ridicule and shaming, loss of prestige and position if any is held.

In this case, in the case of any briefed politician who knew, but didn't have anything else to do with it, resign or be recalled while being publicly ridiculed, and banned from any further government jobs, including lobbyist.

The person doing the shit kicking deserves jail. In this case...You planned it, you worked to find a way to pretend it's legal, you did the torturing...enjoy prison.

[xforge.livejournal.com]

This would be my feeling also. What jlc20thmainewtfbbqomglol doesn't realize is, I'd LIKE IT A LOT if Reid and Pelosi were shown the door, preferably with a steel-toed boot in the ass. Then maybe, MAYBE (but not very bloody likely) we could push our representatives in Congress to elect some chieftans with BALLS. Heaven forbid.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Aim high.

[blueduck37.livejournal.com]

Okay, so let's set up the Truth Commission and, in addition to getting Cheney and Rumsfeld and Rice and Ashcroft and Yoo and Bybee and the rest to testify, we'll ask Pelosi and Reid to testify as well. Sounds like a plan!

I'll contact AG Holder and tell him to get cracking on this case ASAP.

[anfalicious.livejournal.com]

Which is exactly why there needs to be prosecutions, or at the very least, a truth and reconcilliation commission. It really doesn't matter if the Dem's were in on it or not, it's done and people should be going to gaol for it.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Oh, I don't doubt that for an instant.

[torasama.livejournal.com]

I like that second one. Didn't we also execute Nazi officials for saying the same goddamn thing? I feel like I've stepped into a time machine.

[texas-reddmann.livejournal.com]

We did.

We should.

As the guy who would have had to follow those orders, I would have been court-martialed for refusing to follow them then, and those who did follow them should face the music.

[torasama.livejournal.com]

As much as I'd like to say the same, you can't really know what you'd do in a situation like that until you're actually in it. I keep thinking of the Stanford Prision Experiment (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment).