politicartoons | What If MoveOn.org Existed 65 Years Ago?

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WW2/Iraq comparisons of course have all manner of caveats attached, but I still thought this was rather amusing:

http://redstate.com/stories/war/what_if_moveon_org_existed_65_years_ago

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From:

clownshoes.livejournal.com

Source? Something besides Wikipedia, of course.

From:

firstashore.livejournal.com

How about any book on the Battle of the Atlantic for a start, since you seem to be woefully ignorant on the subject?

The book that comes to mind that I actually own (and have had for many years) on the subject is The Battle of the Atlantic (http://www.thebookfayre.com/index.php?option=book&bookID=8990) by John Costello and Tony Hughes. That would be where I first learned about America's pre-war depth charging of U-Boats.

Plenty of others - I don't remember whether this next one specifically mentions American attacks pre-declaration because it deals with a later convoy, but "Convoy: The Greatest U-boat Battle of the War" by Martin Middlebrook is one of the most famous books on the subject. It gives a very good account of depth charge attacks in 1942 and why they so seldom sunk U-Boats.

I would also recommend "The Longest Battle: The War At Sea 1939-45" by Richard Hough. Middlebrook's book covers a single convoy in great depth, Hough's as the name suggests follows the entire war. IIRC it gives plenty of attention to the lead up to America's entry to the war. This one I am certain also mentions the fact that both times the Bismarck was spotted by aircraft during the British hunt in 1941, the pilot was a USN officer serving with British forces - further indication that the US was already involved in the war.

I own all three of those books.

Finally, you can always go with the Official Chronology of the USN in WWII, the main points of which are listed online.

Highlights from the year 1941, clearly indicating both US ships and German U-Boats were attacking each other prior to the official declaration of war (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/USN-Chron/USN-Chron-1941.html):

Sep 4, Thu.
Atlantic
Destroyer Greer (DD-145), while tracking German submarine U-652 175 miles southwest of Iceland, is attacked but not damaged. Soon thereafter, Greer damages the U-boat with depth charges.

Sep 11, Thu.
Atlantic
President Roosevelt, in the wake of the Greer-U 652 incident, announces order to Navy ("Shoot on Sight") to attack any vessel threatening U.S. shipping or ships under American escort. Roosevelt declares that if German or Italian vessels of war enter American-protected waters, they "do so at their own risk."

Sep 12, Fri.
Atlantic
Coast Guard cutter Northland, assisted by cutter North Star, seizes Norwegian trawler Buskoe in MacKenzie Bay, Greenland, thwarting Buskoe's mission of establishing and servicing German radio weather stations in that region. This is the first capture of a belligerent ship by U.S. naval forces in World War II.

Sep 14, Sun.
Atlantic
As TF 15 proceeds toward Iceland, destroyer Truxtun (DD-229) reports submarine emerging from the fog 300 yards away, but low visibility and uncertainty as to the position of MacLeish (DD-220), also in the screen of TF 15, prevents Truxtun from opening fire. After the submarine submerges, Truxtun, MacLeish and Sampson (DD-394) make depth charge attacks with no verifiable result.

From:

firstashore.livejournal.com

Sep 18, Thu.
Atlantic
U.S. Navy ships escort eastbound British trans-Atlantic convoy for first time: TU.4.1.1 (Captain Morton L. Deyo), comprising destroyers Ericsson (DD-440), Eberle (DD-430), Ellis (DD-154), Dallas (DD-199), and Upshur (DD-144), assumes ocean escort duties for convoy HX 150, 150 miles south of Newfoundland

Sep 26, Fri.
Atlantic
Navy orders protection of all ships engaged in commerce in U.S. defensive waters--by patrolling, covering, escorting, and by reporting or destroying German and Italian naval forces encountered.

Oct 16, Thu.
Atlantic
Battle to protect convoy SC 48 continues. German submarines U-502 and U-568 reestablish contact before retiring upon arrival of TU 4.1.4 (Captain Hewlett Thebaud). Destroyer Livermore (DD-429) sweeps ahead of the convoy, depth-charges U-553; destroyer Kearny (DD-432), sweeping astern, drops charges to discourage tracking submarines.

. . .

SC 48 is the first U.S. Navy-escorted convoy to engage German submarines in battle, but despite the presence of the three modern U.S. destroyers and two flush-deckers--Decatur (DD-341) and HMCS Columbia [ex-U.S. destroyer Haraden (DD-183)], and four Canadian corvettes, the enemy torpedoes six ships and an escort vessel in a total elapsed time of four hours and forty-seven minutes.

Oct 18, Mon.
Atlantic
. . .Destroyers Plunkett (DD-431), Livermore (DD-429) and Decatur (DD-341), meanwhile, make concerted depth charge attacks on sound contacts at 54°53'N, 33°08'W with no visible results.

Oct 30, Thu.
Atlantic
Oiler Salinas (AO-19), in convoy ON 28, is torpedoed by German submarine U-106 about 700 miles east of Newfoundland. Only one of Salinas's crew is injured. TU 4.1.6 (Commander George W. Johnson), screening ON 28, attacks sound contacts; destroyer Bernadou (DD-153) carries out five depth charge attacks and fires at what was most likely German submarine U-67, forcing her to submerge; DuPont (DD-152) carries out three depth charge attacks; MacLeish (DD-220) and Sampson (DD-394) one apiece.

Oct 31, Fri.
Atlantic
Destroyer Reuben James (DD-245), while escorting 42-ship convoy HX 156, is torpedoed and sunk by German submarine U-552 off western Iceland, 51°59'N, 27°05'W; 115 men are killed. No merchantmen in HX 156 are attacked. . . . The loss of Reuben James, the first U.S. naval vessel to be lost to enemy action in World War II, proves a temporary detriment to Navy recruiting efforts.

TU 4.1.6 (Commander George W. Johnson), screening ON 28, carries out vigorous attacks on sound contacts: destroyer Babbitt (DD-128) carries out two, while Buck (DD-420), DuPont (DD-152) (which is attacked by U-boat but missed), Leary (DD-158) and Sampson (DD-394) one attack apiece.

Atlantic
German submarine U-43 again attacks unarmed U.S. tanker Astral and this time torpedoes and sinks her at 35°40'N, 24°00'W. There are no survivors from the 37-man merchant crew.