Political Cartoons

Wow. A Ted Rall cartoon that doesn't bring about violent urges and almost made me laugh.

I'm guessing that this cartoon does a poor job of conveying the message he was looking to convey.

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metamadman.livejournal.com

I'm guessing you're still just an idiot.

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I'll consider the source.

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metamadman.livejournal.com

Dude, you're not fooling anyone. A, 'takes one to know one', would've sufficed.

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lafinjack.livejournal.com

Or maybe "I know you are but what am I?"

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megiloth.livejournal.com

That's the same thing I was thinking. I'm guessing the subtext was that our troops beat up terrorists, that's somehow a bad thing, and the big mean brute doesn't even think twice aboot his job, goes home and watches a little television.

It's all in a day's work. Hell, I work with a Navy Seal who was sent on missions to kill people, return to base, wait around, go kill somebody else, take a little R&R, repeat. It's just something you do because you have the stomach.

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squidb0i.livejournal.com

The entire torture issue is about whether or not:

- these people are terrorists in the first place, as there have been numerous instances of mistakes made and innocents being tortured for years after being picked up by, say, Syrian intelligence, and then handed over to us as terrorists with little or no verification.

- torture is within the ethical parameters that we as a society hold dear

- torture works at all in the first place as a means of gathering useable information

- torture makes our soldiers and civilians less safe by further inflaming already raging anti-American sentiment abroad.

- torture by US agencies and personnel is encouraging eye for an eye treatment when our people are captured

And the list of reasons goes on and on.

This is NOT about whether or not soldiers can 'live with themselves' after doing their jobs or any similar projections of 'troop hating' from the right wing spin machine.

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- torture by US agencies and personnel is encouraging eye for an eye treatment when our people are captured

There's a big no, given that the first American taken prisoner in Afghanistan was found dead with his genitals in his mouth. If anything, it was Al Qaeda's treatment of prisoners that encouraged the United States to use torture.

- torture works at all in the first place as a means of gathering useable information

This is an obvious affirmative. Hell, you don't even have to torture people...you just have to let them think that you're going to torture them. Naturally, just because you're torturing people, you can't throw out the rest of the interrogation handbook out the window. You still need to corroborate information and all that fun stuff.

- torture is within the ethical parameters that we as a society hold dear

Given the activities of police officers across the country, it's pretty obvious that American society is pretty tolerant off torture.

This is NOT about whether or not soldiers can 'live with themselves' after doing their jobs or any similar projections of 'troop hating' from the right wing spin machine.

It's Ted Rall. Of course it's troop-hating. This is a guy who attacked FDNY firefighters in the wake of 9/11. They're people who just try to rescue people. Do you really think Rall has anything but contempt for Americans who go out into the world to kill our country's enemies?

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At the risk of incurring your displeasure

'- torture works at all in the first place as a means of gathering useable information

This is an obvious affirmative. Hell, you don't even have to torture people...you just have to let them think that you're going to torture them. Naturally, just because you're torturing people, you can't throw out the rest of the interrogation handbook out the window. You still need to corroborate information and all that fun stuff. '

Is as anyone knows who has had anything at all to do with intelligence, the gathering of data, of the interrogation of prisoners, hugely unreliable.
It might be an obvious affirmative to you but in reality it's as big a crock of shit as the earth being flat, which is also intuitively obvious until you look to the horizon.
Don't argue with your prejudice instead of analysis.
Too many episodes of '24' have clouded your judgement.

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And to emphasise my point:
The problem with torture is it gives false positives.
Give me the pliers, electrodes, and razor blades, and I bet I could have you admitting to 9/11 inside of three weeks, and I'm no expert. They'd take a couple of days.
So wrong, so mad, and so unreliable.

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Depends on the context in which it's used.

*blowtorch to testicles*

I know you were responsible for the USS Cole bombing Johnny. Admit it.

*red-hot pliers to fingernails*

ADMIT IT!

False positive!

However...

*blowtorch to testcles*

What's the PIN number to your debit card, Johnny?

*red-hot pliers to fingernails*

WHAT'S YOUR PIN NUMBER, JOHNNY???

Good.. Good. Now, where did you hide your car keys, Johnny? Where are they?

Verifiable information has been gathered...

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And you think that the answers the folk doing the torture want to hear won't influence what they do hear?

And all the verifiable information is, as we know, useless, because you'd have it anyway. Or do you think that logic flawed

Torture to obtain information you don't have:

When is the next bomb going off?
The first answer, before the blow torch to the testicles is unverifiable.
Therefore you blowtorch the testicles, and the answer is still unverifiable.
An given the liklihood that the person actually knows when the bomb is going to go off (and they're of a mentality that embraces martydom, and welcomes pain - as some of these chaps have proved) is the first answer you get the true one, or the twentieth. Then all one has to do is distinguish between the false negatives.

Of course, if the person being tortured has no knowledge of where the bomb is going off we have a different situation, and one where the torturer, in an effort to extract information that isn't there, will lead the victim in his/or her disclosures: and as we know, all those answers will be false positives, and many will be demonstrably verifiable.

I do wish people would either think hard about this stuff or READ the fucking literature on torture.

When folk's prejudices warp their reason, and then, on top of this they start advocating torture, you really have to wonder what America is coming to. Is the descent into unthinking barbarism accelerating beyond any hope of the rational trying to change America's course.

Oh my dear, and you think I can't tell what's what.

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What's your LJ password?

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supercalfragilisticexpialadocious.
Isn't everybodies?

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and once you've tried that you can ask me again.
Now I've got the bunsen burner under your balls: please tell me johnny9fingers password. Now. Now. Now. Oh, I slipped. Never mind, you have another testicle.

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Dammit boy:
supercalfragilisticexpialadocious didn't work, you've got to try harder: you know you want to try harder, else the pain will start again.

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So despite the fact that a 'known' oppo has given you some information, it's not true, but I still have to torture you to confirm or deny this. Sooner or later you'll come up with something I know to be true-ish. You might even get a letter right. But as long as I'm torturing you for a third piece of information you don't have, you're stuffed and resorting to guesses.

You start with the presupposition that the person you're torturing HAS the information you need. (Well, they're all Rag-Heads, aren't they? And they were in the general vicinity, or they once met a relative of - and someone must know what's going on - but evidently not us.)

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Well no shit, Sherlock. That's why I asked you what your password is.

That's why I'm not asking anyone else what your password is...

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Well torture away, next time I might tell you something you'll think about.

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You lied.

I confirmed it by trying to access your journal, only to get an "invalid username or password" message.

Now, I know you have an LJ. And since I know you use this LJ, I know you know what your own password is. I'll know if you're lying to me, because if you do, I won't be able to access your journal.

*hammer breaks little toe*

What's your LJ password, Johnny?

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lafinjack.livejournal.com

...is it safe?

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Oh, yes. It's very safe... Hey, umm, I don't remember scheduling a dentist's appointment today...

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To illustrate further.

Verifiable information has been gathered.

Now if I torture you and ask you for information you don't have you have two options, you can tell me lies (to stop the pain) or you can tell me the truth and the torture will go on.
Eventually, the process of torture will force you to learn to give the answers I want, because the torture will be ameliorated when you do - this is a learning curve with frighteningly severe consequences.
This leads to you giving me information that I already knew and you are reaching for to stop the agony. But that's alright really, because this information is verifiable and consonant with what I already know.

The descent into Barbarism is something I would have thought the rational in America would be trying to prevent.

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q.v. Popper's debate with the Vienna Circle and the case for falsifiability over verifiability.

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leprofessional.livejournal.com

I like it... I think I understand it. It's a very unsettling message.

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"They'll march in the streets."

...OH NOES!

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Someone should really do a study about the effectiveness of street marches.

I'm guessing that the value of an individual protester or marcher is less than $1.00 spent on lobbying. In other words, $150,000 given to a lobbying firm will have way more effect on convincing politicians than 150,000 people marching will.

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lafinjack.livejournal.com

http://www.duvet-dayz.com/archives/2007/01/20/271/

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readwriteblue.livejournal.com

Trite drivel made from propaganda.

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sunpony.livejournal.com

Kinda like that cartoon by Cox & Forkum about Pelosi the other day?

Just out of curiosity, when did the establishment of a torture camp under US supervision became "trite?"

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Just out of curiosity, when did the establishment of a torture camp under US supervision became "trite?"

I'm guessing somewhere around September 12, 2001...

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kip-w.livejournal.com

That's when torture changed from being un-American and useless to taking the place of "Apple Pie" in the Trinity.

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kip-w.livejournal.com

You keep up the outrages long enough, and people just get used to them. Tell enough big lies, and after a while, it just doesn't matter. Some day there'll be a Godwin's Law about every online argument eventually degenerating to the point where someone will be compared to the United States.

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I don't think that some folk really care, m'dear.
May I point you to the Diary of Fredriech (Fritz) Reck-Malleczewen.
You mentioned Godwin's Law.

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kip-w.livejournal.com

Huh?

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