(no subject)

[merig00.livejournal.com]

and to stay in the general region of Middle East...

Coca-Cola Akbar!




Fresh look on PR and political propaganda through good old cartoon :D

Comments

[udoswald.livejournal.com]

That was a bit more than just grammar snipping. I could guess at what you meant but I wouldn't want to misunderstand.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

I was just quoting you... ok here you go

What do you think is the underlying reason that "they can't travel freely, they can't count on a steady supply of electricity or resources"?

[udoswald.livejournal.com]

The fact that Israel practices collective punishment and controls all the borders and the flow of supplies.

See, that wasn't that hard.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

Are you sure that Israel controls all the borders of Gaza? I'd check the map if I were you.

Also for the part of the border that Israel does control - does Israel have a condition on which she will lift the blockade?

[udoswald.livejournal.com]

Which border does Israel not control? They control the border with Israel, they either control the border with Egypt or essentially control it through their agreements with Egypt, they control the border with the Sea. Several Palestinians were denied fellowships in the United States because Israel prevented them from leaving. American citizens of Palestinian descent are prevented from moving freely in Israel/Palestine by virtue of their blood.

I don't know what Israel wants in order to lift the blockade. I don't know if they even know. It's certainly more than is easily given. If their condition is that all violence be stopped, that's unreasonable and constitutes collective punishment. The Palestinian people have reasonable grievances with Israel whether you want to admit it or not.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

So not only Israel has a blockade on Gaza but also Egypt... If I were you I'd look into the reasons why Egypt closed the border. Also check the historical relationship of Egypt and Gaza.

Yes they want the violence to be stopped. You see you contradict yourself: If palestinian people have a collective grievances with Israel which they express through violence, why Israel can't constitute a collective punishment?

As for entry and all that - another interesting point. If you are living in France and your great-grandparent was a refugee from palestine you are still considered to be a palestinian refugee. So those american citizens are still refugees no matter of their citizenship. It's like some people on West Bank still have jordanian passports but we don't see Jordan too eager to help their citizens in need.

[udoswald.livejournal.com]

Did I say they had a blockade on Egypt? I said they had control over all the borders of Gaza including the border with Egypt. It doesn't really matter if Israel administers it or if Egypt does, the result is the same and if Israel asked Egypt to stop it they would.

I know the history of Gaza being taken in a war from Egypt. I don't see what that has to do with anything.

Because most Palestinians aren't expressing their grievance through violence, most are just trying to live their lives in the face of violent repression from Israel and brutal corruption from their leadership which was created by Israel. My point was that it's unfair to expect all violence to stop, and therefore punish the Palestinian people until that happens, because Palestinians have a reasonable grievance and some of them will invariably express it through violence. It's not like the violent ones are completely unreasonable, they had a mortal enemy dropped onto land that was once theirs without any say in the matter, how would you feel?

Treating American citizens that way should be grounds for the US to cut off diplomatic ties with Israel. It's a disgrace and an insult to America. No other civilized country treats people that way. The US Passport very clearly states that nations should give all assistance and allow free movement to all citizens of the US holding that passport. For one of our allies to do otherwise, especially if that nation essentially imprisoned said citizen and refused them access to most of the country, would not stand if that ally was anyone other than Israel.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

So Egypt and USA are the puppets of evil Israel? You can't come up with any internal legitimate reasons why Egypt wants the border to be closed?

I hate to paraphrase but I'll try as careful as I can. People of Gaza legitimately elected Hamas to be their leaders. Hamas considers Israel to be it's mortal enemy. There's war and civilians suffer. If it's a reasonable war then Israel has a right to retaliate against the enemy.

Last time I checked you need a visa to enter USA with israeli passport but you can freely enter Israel with USA passport. Israel still is a sovereign nation. Those lines in the passport is a polite request not a demand. While in a foreign country, a U.S. citizen is subject to that country's laws and regulations

And since you brought up the topic of USA citizens. Here's a lit of countries US citizen cannot enter if (s)he has visited Israel:
Iran
Kuwait
Lebanon
Libya
Pakistan
Saudi Arabia
Sudan
Syria
Yemen

And if you consider countries which won't allow you in if you have dual US-Israel citizenship it's even longer

[udoswald.livejournal.com]

The USA is clearly biased when it comes to Israel. Egypt is bound by treaties and the fact that the last time they tangled with Israel they lost a significant portion of their land. You're the one who called them evil.

Egypt seems to want the border closed because Israel wants the border closed. I don't know enough about Egypt to say why that is.

The Palestinian people elected Hamas because they were the only party even suggesting that something be done. Fatah is super corrupt and is little more than a puppet of the Israeli occupation. Hamas isn't perfect but at least they tried to make it look like they cared. I blame Israel for the rise of Hamas. Any group with little hope is going to make bad decisions like that and the reason they had little hope was because of the actions of Israel.

Like I said, it's highly unusual for citizens of a country, especially an ally, to be discriminated against in a foreign nation based solely on their race. If I visited Israel I would be unable to enter those countries too, it has nothing to do with race in those cases and everything to do with internal security. I hate to break it to you, but Arab/Muslim nations have a legitimate reason to fear infiltration by Israeli spies. Israel's policy is based solely on the race of the traveler.

How many countries on your nice little list are allies of the US? How many receive billions of dollars in military aid? With the possible exception of Kuwait, those countries on the list aren't exactly great friends of the US. The bottom line is that Israel is supposedly one of our best friends in the world, they receive billions of dollars in military aid which they turn around and use to kill civilians, and yet they discriminate against our citizens based on race. You may have a blind spot to the whole thing, you seem the type who would defend Israel no matter what happened, but to me that's insulting.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

ah twisting facts around... they were allowed entrance only into West Bank because they had palestinian IDs with them. It's a deal with double citizenship and not race. For example (i'm just giving you one that i 100% sure of) if you have dual US-Russian citizenship you must enter Russia with your Russian passport and while in Russia, russian citizenship supersedes american citizenship. So when those people came to Israel they were palestinian citizens first.

As for israeli spies - let's look at it closer. If you are let's say african-italian-american and you visited Israel seven years ago you won't be able to enter Saudi Arabia. And that is fine with you. But if you area dual citizen with palestinian ID you should be allowed to enter Israel though palestinians are not allowed in?

It's a triple bigotry on your part. First you decline Israel it's sovereign right to allow or not allow anyone into the country. Secondly you decline palestinians the right to their own country by protesting israelies identifying West Bank as a separate entity. And thirdly you are saying that it's ok to label anyone who ever visited Israel as an israeli spy but do not hold the same believe for us-palestinians.

As for military aid. Israel receives the money just to turn around and purchase american weapons. It's part of the deal. Just business as usual. We give you money to buy our weapons. And again not race but citizenship.

[udoswald.livejournal.com]

So much wrong, so little time.

If you are an American citizen you should be afforded all the privileges given to Americans regardless of who stole what land from your parents or grandparents.

They have a right of course to deny anyone, we also have a right (which we should exercise) to deny them aid as long as they discriminate against our citizens.

I firmly believe in a Palestinian state. I think a case could be made that the world would be better off if they hadn't been denied their land in the first place. The fact though is that the "Palestinian state in Gaza and the West Bank" is nothing but a lie printed on paper to make Jews feel better. I doubt anyone on the ground believes it actually exists. The land is still controlled by Israel, Israel controls entry and exit through all ports either personally or through proxies. Israel bombs the land at will and invades it on almost a monthly basis. How is this an independent country? It's insulting, and absurd, for you to accuse me of bigotry against Palestinians for stating the obvious while you hold actual bigoted beliefs against them.

American citizens are American citizens, I don't care where their parents came from. If you're an American, you should be allowed to freely move about an allied country. If Israel wants to treat a large minority of its population as guilty until proven guilty that's another issue, as for Americans there's no reason to treat them as a threat.

The Mossad makes the CIA look like a tea party. They have the ability to send spies everywhere and have done so in the past. Arab countries are justified in being concerned just as you would be justified if you worried about your neighbor after he broke into your house three times.

I've never heard of a Palestinian spy agency. They can barely make it out of the occupied territories. As for American citizens, there is no reason to believe that an American of Palestinian descent is a spy.

Israel turns around and buys American weapons and uses them to kill innocent children, intentionally. Obviously any cut in aid would also have to entail getting rid of the absurd American arms sales to Israel.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

...uses them to kill innocent children, intentionally.

I think that's as much absurd as I can take for one day. Good night.

[udoswald.livejournal.com]

Do you think the Israeli government is stupid? That's really the only alternative. Using cluster bombs and large scale weapons in populated areas causes civilian casualties. Either they realize that, and do it anyway, or they're too dumb to realize it and shouldn't be allowed near such weapons.

Isn't Star Trek waiting?

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

why Israel can't constitute a collective punishment?


Gee, go figure. And you called him a nazi.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

If you read more carefully I'm just extending his own statement about collective grievances of palestinian which are expressed in violence and terrorist activities