politicartoons | (no subject)

You're right – the idea of Israel existing as a Jewish state is completely repugnant. It's as bad as saying blacks should go back to Africa. You constantly imply that opposing Israel's policy of terrorism against Palestinians is anti-Semitic, but ironically, you've demonstrated that you are the racist.

No I'm questioning peoples logic behind it - Chinese have chinese state, french have their state, russians have their state, british - have their state and so on. However jews having their state is somehow racist.

China is waging a cultural war against Tibet, and we oppose that as well. China has committed some human rights violations in response to protests in Tibet, but at least they aren't indiscriminately firebombing Tibetan schools. As for the French, the Russians, and the British, the obvious difference is that those are nationalities, not races, and those nations don't practice anything like Israel's racist oppression of the native people of the artificial Jewish homeland.

so jews are now not only a nationality and a religion but also a race? Maybe even all separate specie all together?

Perhaps ethnicity is a better word. My point still stands.

Don't act like this is news to you. Jewish identity has always been both ethnic and religious. The concept of Jewish nationality has only existed since the arbitrary creation of Israel in 1948. And it's not even the existence of a Jewish nation I protest, but the racist and terroristic policies of that nation.

Jewish being a race is a news to me. Being jewish myself I kinda know who I am thank you very much :)

Too bad I can't tell my ancestor that them considering themselves a nation for the past 3000 years was a mistake.

Being Jewish is definitely an ethnicity. It's not "pure" in any sense, but then, nobody's is. Many people who do not practice Judaism still identify themselves as ethnically Jewish. If that's news to you, you've really been living in a fantasy world.

And your ancestors might have viewed themselves as a nation in exile, but the reality is that Jews were scattered across the globe and completely lacked a national identity until 1948. Wishing otherwise doesn't change history.

I'm not talking about nationality as in citizenship but about collective of people sharing a national identity, based on ethnic and cultural ties and self-determination

Ethnic ties? I thought you were claiming it's not an ethnicity.

Anyway, for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. Let's say that Jews are a nation in exile, and that the right of self-determination (a right I champion, by the way) entitles them to their own state. That's still not a defense for Israel's racist and terroristic treatment of Palestinians.

i was saying that it is an ethnicity(nationality) and religion not a race.

It's not a defense and I cannot wait until Israel pulls out of West Bank and treats it as neighboring state. But for that you not only need political will of israeli government but also for palestinian parties to acknowledge the existence of the State of Israel.

That's only true if you set a beginning point as well as an end point. Jews have lacked a national identity FROM a couple of thousand years ago until 1948 give or take a few years.

Out of curiosity, are you opposed to Christian and Muslim nation-states as well?

Yes. Religion has no place in any government.

Well, I respect your consistency even if I disagree with the premise. But I still don't think it's the presence of an established religion that's the problem so much as how the majority religion/ethnic group treats the minority/ies. And in that regard Israel, like so many other nations, certainly does fall short.

I don't think religion is the main problem with Israel, either. Zionism isn't really a religious thing at all. There's probably some correlation, just like fundamentalist Christianity and nationalistic pseudo-patriotism go hand-in-hand in the United States. But many really devout Jews are opposed to the existence of a Jewish state in Palestine, because they see it as a faithless attempt by mankind to fulfill prophecy.

Just because there's not universal agreement on Zionism among religious Jews doesn't mean Zionism isn't at least partly a religious thing. Judaism is a very old religion and very tied to locale in a way that more modern religions aren't, and the extreme religious relevance of that particular land to the Jewish religion can't be dismissed. It's part of what makes the whole situation so fraught.