politicartoons | Hate Free Zone!

Maybe that would work if Capt. America was a commie.

He beat up all sorts of totalitarians.

Maybe he'll start hitting liberals then since that's what they've been striving for.

No he won't. Perhaps you should avail yourself to look up positive and negative freedom sometime.

I fail to see what that has to do with liberals being totalitarianists, albeit unknowingly.

You WILL judge people on their character instead of on their genes, OR WE WILL KILL YOU !!!!

How's that? Leftist enough?

In what way are liberals being totalitarians? Inquiring minds want to know.

Promoting communism.

Even if they were, promoting communism itself is not totalitarian.

So try again.

I disagree. You're conflating intent with outcome. The proponents of communism have historically tried to force a distributed economy to arise but instead end up becoming a centralized totalitarian regime.

The left's silencing of opposition and now emerging violence are manifestations of such mentality. i.e. Their actions represent this desire to have complete control of outcome.

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When I was young, my mother tried to keep cartoons that 'glorified violence' away from me. For example, she didn't like me watching Teenage Mutant Hero Turtles. Some people react with incredulity when I say that and I half-agree with them; any sensible person should realise that comic or cartoon violence doesn't translate to real life.

Yet I've seen a fair few examples of cartoon, comic and film violence against Nazis used as if it makes a real life point.

The real fight against the Nazis were by soldiers who picked up guns and shot German soldiers dead. I believe that this was justified at the time and what we now know about the Nazis justified this use of violence to kill. Sometimes life requires us to do ugly and unpleasant things.

To take the Richard Spencer example, sucker-punching a white nationalist who was not acting violently or illegally and then running away is maybe loosely similar to some examples of comic book violence but it is not comparable to the justified violence of WWII. Such violence is not brace, not necessary, nor even effective.

Actually it might have been at least effective ...

Richard Spencer's reaction video (referenced in your link) is worth watching in full: 'My video on the attacks on me and what the AltRight can learn from it.' (https://twitter.com/RichardBSpencer/status/823178714506788865"")

He's very careful in how he describes and presents himself and those who have attacked him. He definitely wants people on the right, including all Trump voters, to perceive leftist protesters as a common enemy and a real threat, but I don't think he has any intention of going quiet.

As for Milo, I agree that he should be no platformed for his abusive behaviours, but I don't think that will do anything to damage his popularity and his media reach. In fact, his book has since become a best seller on Amazon.

I think this article does a good job of explaining how that's happened: I Helped Create the Milo Trolling Playbook. You Should Stop Playing Right Into It (http://observer.com/2017/02/i-helped-create-the-milo-trolling-playbook-you-should-stop-playing-right-into-it/)

I don't think that you can stop the spread of ideas like these by punching the people who hold them.

*sigh* Yes, I know. But damn that schadenfreude feels good.

Seeing violence done against those you hate will 'feel good' to many people; that's a common human trait and I don't think that people should be ashamed of that.

For me personally, I'm quite violence-averse on an emotional and gut level, so I don't tend to experience schadenfreude. If and when I feel any level of satisfaction in another's pain, it tends to be a fairly bitter and twisted feeling that I can't enjoy in any celebrity or happy way.

Those kind of emotional and gut reactions aren't the kind of thing that I think a person can be talked or reasoned into though; you feel it or you don't.

Hence, I'm more interested in ideological stances on violence and practical assessments of violence as a political means. My own judgements are that violence (of this type in this context) do poorly on both metrics and thus is best avoided.

An admirable stance that I cannot fault.
Now how about a compromise. Let's not punch Donald Trump, let's throw a cream pie in his face during a press conference, and toot an old car horn - HONKA HONKA - just after it hits.

Edited 2017-02-12 03:37 (UTC)

If Spencer had a custard pie thrown at his face rather than a punch, then that would I think that would have been a lot more effective.

If the aim is to discredit the ideas then it seems better to make people like Spencer and Milo look ridiculous rather than punch them. We need to engineer the situation so that these people are looking like fringe lunatics who deserve derision, not sympathy or support.

Bit late for that to work well with Trump, although a cream pie to the face is unlikely to make things much worse.

None of this really does a lot to address liberal objections regarding 'free market of ideas' and all that kind of thing still aren't met, but most people aren't liberals so I don't expect that to hold much sway.

All that petty stuff isn't going to accomplish anything positive for your ideals. It'll just turn into a circle jerk among liberals while more people jump off that sinking ship.

Edited 2017-02-12 15:38 (UTC)

Recent events have shown that shining a light on the beliefs of the 'alt-right' can be effective in itself.

The Berkeley protests were ineffective and were partly responsible for Milo's book becoming a best seller. However, media attention and public discussion of Milo's comments on paedophilia have cause that book to be cancelled. It's good to see some kind of success for the 'free market of ideas'.

Either way, Liberalism seems to be a far way from dead. Despite the authoritarian streaks of the left and right wings, liberalism still seems to be a popular centre-ground position.

> Such violence is not brace, not necessary, nor even effective.<

Richard Spence disagrees with on the latter two points.

c.f., http://isocracy.org/content/actually-nazis-are-still-bad

I responded to that link in the comment above yours: Reply to Garote (http://politicartoons.livejournal.com/5060820.html?thread=109219028#t109219028)

Here's some linkspam as to provide context for why I don't agree.

First, responses from the 'alt-right'

Richard Spencer's reaction video in full: 'My video on the attacks on me and what the AltRight can learn from it. (https://twitter.com/RichardBSpencer/status/823178714506788865)'

Milo's compilation video of left-wing violence: Violence At Berkeley For Milo Event (Compilation #1) (https://www.facebook.com/myiannopoulos/videos/836229473181616/?hc_location=ufi)

Discussion and observations of the consequences

Article on whether being banned, no-platformed and protested really hurts people like people like Milo: 'I Helped Create the Milo Trolling Playbook. You Should Stop Playing Right Into It (http://observer.com/2017/02/i-helped-create-the-milo-trolling-playbook-you-should-stop-playing-right-into-it/)'

Screenshot of Milo's book as a best seller on Amazon: Dangerous, Best seller (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10211806589824947&set=a.1264682621928.40233.1375630950&type=3&theater)

Interest in Milo as expressed via google over the five years: Google Trends (https://www.google.com/trends/explore?q=Milo%20Yiannopoulos)

Some Academic Sources

Study of violent and non-violent protest during the civil rights movement: Do Protests Matter? Evidence from the 1960s Black Insurgency Omar Wasow February 2, 2017 (http://www.omarwasow.com/Protests_on_Voting.pdf)

Findings on the political consequences of the London riots: The impact of the riots: people feel more threatened and prejudiced Published by Steven Fielding on September 5, 2011 (http://nottspolitics.org/2011/09/05/the-impact-of-the-riots-people-feel-more-threatened-and-prejudiced/)

Brief thoughts from me

I'm not a pacifist; I do not reject the use of violence in all situations and all contexts, I'm just cautious of it's use.

The Spencer video doesn't show Spencer doing or saying anything vile or even controversial. It just shows an unprovoked and cowardly attack. Meanwhile, most people are not familiar with Spencer's views, so lack the context that antifa have for cheering the protester. In terms of basic PR, this seems like a clear fail.

Milo has made a career out of being controversial. He's not especially intelligent or insightful and his talks are fairly juvenile, but he gets media attention because people hate him. he's to politics what Kate Hopkins is to journalism; he exists and thrives on other people's hatred of his work.

> Richard Spencer's reaction video in full:<

Yes, at 16.49 he makes it clear that if they're shut out of the public they're not going to win. So...

> In terms of basic PR, this seems like a clear fail.<

Given the entire debate has been around "Is it OK to punch Nazis?", I think it's been a success. People have remixed the incident with music videos. People are cheering, and reposting it everywhere. The very tweet that you linked has this.

I'll read the academic studies later, but as many have pointed out people holding hands and singing Kumbaya doesn't have a good historical record of success.

"at 16.49 he makes it clear that if they're shut out of the public they're not going to win."

A sucker-punch isn't going to keep him out of the public... so just how violent does this need to get to stop him? Given the controversy over a sucker-punch, how well do you expect more severe forms of violence to play in the media and across the general public?

"Given the entire debate has been around "Is it OK to punch Nazis?", I think it's been a success. People have remixed the incident with music videos. People are cheering, and reposting it everywhere. The very tweet that you linked has this."

My observation is that the reaction varies according to pre-existing political bias.

For bubbles on the left, a divide has opened up between 'leftists', who tend to celebrate and those who condemn the punch and 'liberals', who tend to condemn it. For people on the right, this is just more evidence of how left-wing stances on 'tolerance' are hollow.

That's already not a great picture without thinking about how this may have affected the opinions and prejudices with those with a weaker sense of political identity and less partisan bias.

Edited 2017-02-23 19:56 (UTC)

> For bubbles on the left, a divide has opened up between 'leftists', who tend to celebrate and those who condemn the punch and 'liberals', who tend to condemn it. For people on the right, this is just more evidence of how left-wing stances on 'tolerance' are hollow.<

Whatever happened to "I tolerate everything except intolerance"?

If liberals and conservatives think that advocates have a "right to free speech" (and a right to defame groups) then its become a very sad state of affairs for them.