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http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/515?OpenDocument
and so you don't need to bother, i already know the IDF's excuses, that it was only used for illumination or smoke cover. bullshit. they have fucking planes and helicopters and tanks. the palestinians have a few fireworks and guns. and they dropped the stuff right in the middle of the city.
and so you don't need to bother, i already know the IDF's excuses, that it was only used for illumination or smoke cover. bullshit. they have fucking planes and helicopters and tanks. the palestinians have a few fireworks and guns. and they dropped the stuff right in the middle of the city.
military superiority is bad when it is used to oppress a population.
The apartheid argument isn't entirely invalid - it's hard to straight-facedly deny that Israel's Palestinian population are treated as second-class citizens. The real problem is that everywhere else they've tried to go, they've been treated as third-class citizens by nations which they thought would welcome them.
i was saying that it is an ethnicity(nationality) and religion not a race.
It's not a defense and I cannot wait until Israel pulls out of West Bank and treats it as neighboring state. But for that you not only need political will of israeli government but also for palestinian parties to acknowledge the existence of the State of Israel.
It's not a defense and I cannot wait until Israel pulls out of West Bank and treats it as neighboring state. But for that you not only need political will of israeli government but also for palestinian parties to acknowledge the existence of the State of Israel.
I don't think religion is the main problem with Israel, either. Zionism isn't really a religious thing at all. There's probably some correlation, just like fundamentalist Christianity and nationalistic pseudo-patriotism go hand-in-hand in the United States. But many really devout Jews are opposed to the existence of a Jewish state in Palestine, because they see it as a faithless attempt by mankind to fulfill prophecy.
a few fireworks and guns... hahahaha
I think we do have several veterans here who could talk here about urban warfare.
I think we do have several veterans here who could talk here about urban warfare.
That's only true if you set a beginning point as well as an end point. Jews have lacked a national identity FROM a couple of thousand years ago until 1948 give or take a few years.
hmm. stay out of other people's cities and you don't have to engage in urban warfare.
First there are not israeli palestinians - israeli arabs. Druze and bedouins are treated fairly because they are loyal citizens... the rest on the other hand not so much. But even with treason Israel gives large liniency - remember when arab members of knesset cheered for israeli losses and aided the enemy? They are still in Knesset.
Just because there's not universal agreement on Zionism among religious Jews doesn't mean Zionism isn't at least partly a religious thing. Judaism is a very old religion and very tied to locale in a way that more modern religions aren't, and the extreme religious relevance of that particular land to the Jewish religion can't be dismissed. It's part of what makes the whole situation so fraught.
So next time Hamas overburdens Israel's patience with the number of rocket attacks, Israel just should just bomb them without using any ground troops. Thanks. Seems like IDF commanders are more humane then you are.
it was your suggestion, not mine
i didn't conclude that israel doesn't have the right to exist, merely that palestinians do.
i don't know why every israel argument is framed in terms of "right to exist" as though i'm trying to ceremoniously wish away the other side. merig and i theoretically both believe in a two-state solution, the primary difference between us is that he doesn't care how it happens.
i don't know why every israel argument is framed in terms of "right to exist" as though i'm trying to ceremoniously wish away the other side. merig and i theoretically both believe in a two-state solution, the primary difference between us is that he doesn't care how it happens.
i don't know why every israel argument is framed in terms of "right to exist"
Mostly because some countries and 3 out 4 major fractions in palestine do not recognize Israel.
I do care... it's just taht I see only two ways how it could happen:
1)Israel unilaterally pulls out of West Bank and lifts blockade of Gaza. Palestinians still don't recognize Israel. They take it as their win and increase the number of attacks. Israel retaliates and we are back to square one.
2. Arab nations and palestinians recognize the State of Israel. They work out the exact borders in 1968 position. Everyone lives happily ever after or at least they pretend so.
Which one is more realistic to you? Do you have any your own view?
Mostly because some countries and 3 out 4 major fractions in palestine do not recognize Israel.
I do care... it's just taht I see only two ways how it could happen:
1)Israel unilaterally pulls out of West Bank and lifts blockade of Gaza. Palestinians still don't recognize Israel. They take it as their win and increase the number of attacks. Israel retaliates and we are back to square one.
2. Arab nations and palestinians recognize the State of Israel. They work out the exact borders in 1968 position. Everyone lives happily ever after or at least they pretend so.
Which one is more realistic to you? Do you have any your own view?
you seem to be forgetting israel's insistence that palestinians accept israel as a pure jewish state and live as citizens with curtailed rights.
see the last proposal for just such a thing.
see the last proposal for just such a thing.
wait there are palestinians in Palestine and israeli arabs in Israel.
the two-state solution isn't even on the table is what i'm getting at
israel is basically going "with us or against us"
israel is basically going "with us or against us"
If tomorrow palestinians recognize Israel and agree to the 1968 borders and probably even shared Jerusalem, Israel most probably will agree to it.
My apologies, I was confused by your phrasing when it came to "not supporting" Israel. I guess you meant not supporting their actions rather than not supporting their right to their state. My bad for misreading.
But part of the reason Israel arguments get framed that way is the fact that there has been opposition to their existence as a state since day one. There are still many nations who refuse to "recognize" Israel as an actual country, and the idea that they have no right to exist isn't totally fringe or laughable.
But part of the reason Israel arguments get framed that way is the fact that there has been opposition to their existence as a state since day one. There are still many nations who refuse to "recognize" Israel as an actual country, and the idea that they have no right to exist isn't totally fringe or laughable.
which is valid when addressing criticism from, say, iran.
the internet has yet to recognize me as a muslim state.
the internet has yet to recognize me as a muslim state.
well maybe you share Iran's view on the issue :)
i forgot that all us liberals love ahmadinejad
like that time we
like that time we
Yeah, but that's why it's not necessarily tin-foil-hat-y to assume that if someone is really really critical of Israel, they may well be opposed to its status as a country. The discourse has become so polarized and all.
I should have probably bolded ":)"
But you could choose from any of these countries:
Africa: Algeria, Chad, Comoros, Djibouti, Guinea, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Somalia, Sudan, Tunisia.
Americas: Bolivia, Cuba, Venezuela
East Asia: Taiwan, North Korea
Middle East: Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, United Arab Emirates.
South, Central Asia: Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Pakistan.
Southeast Asia: Brunei, Malaysia, Indonesia
But you could choose from any of these countries:
Africa: Algeria, Chad, Comoros, Djibouti, Guinea, Libya, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Somalia, Sudan, Tunisia.
Americas: Bolivia, Cuba, Venezuela
East Asia: Taiwan, North Korea
Middle East: Bahrain, Iran, Iraq, Lebanon, Kuwait, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Yemen, United Arab Emirates.
South, Central Asia: Afghanistan, Bangladesh, Bhutan, Pakistan.
Southeast Asia: Brunei, Malaysia, Indonesia
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