Native American protests at an Arizona Illegal Immigration Rally

[telemann.livejournal.com]

Pushing a toddler in a stroller, a rightfully irritated self-identified Native American began yelling at the group, saying: “Y’all f*cking illegal. You’re all illegal. You’re all illegal! We didn’t invite none of you here!” Some of the audio may not be work safe, so be warned.

Comments

[mzflux.livejournal.com]

Thank chron_job. (http://politicartoons.livejournal.com/3539992.html?thread=80837656#t80837656)

[ygam.livejournal.com]

Since you referred to chron_job's comment approvingly, it is my understanding that you believe that a country not founded on unjust privilege is a country with open borders, like the ones the United States had for much of the 19th century, before the frontier closed, except intercontinental travel is now much easier. So in your ideal world, if a million Bangladeshis or Somalis or Malawians decided that they wanted to move to the United States, there should be no obstacles barring them from doing so, just like now there are no obstacles barring a New Yorker from moving to New Jersey. Am I right? I don't want to argue against a caricature of my opponent's position, which is why I want to double check it.

[mzflux.livejournal.com]

You're so polite I simply MUST respond!

1) Are you implying America wasn't founded on unjust privilege? That's funny.

2) No obstacles. Also funny.

You're throwing around caricatures left and right, which I suppose is appropriate since we're in a political cartoons community. Carry on.

[ygam.livejournal.com]

Years of political dialogue in Russophone LiveJournal, and years before that (when the Russophone blogosphere did not yet exist) in English-language forums have taught me to be polite even with people i disagree with.

I asked you, whether in your ideal world, there would be open borders. You haven't answered my question. Please do.

Of course the United States is founded on unjust privilege. There is no justice in that a bus driver in Seattle makes much more money than a bus driver in Chittagong. There is no justice in that a factory worker in Detroit makes much more money than a factory worker in Shenzhen. This is a fact. My question to you is, what you want to do about it. Do you want to allow a Seattle-based bus company to fire all the drivers it currently has, bring new drivers from Chittagong, and pay them much more than they would make in their native Bangladesh, but much less than it used to pay American drivers? Do you want to allow a Detroit-based car company to fire all the workers it currently has, bring new workers from Shenzhen, and pay them much more than they would make in their native China, but much less than it used to pay American workers? In 1913, this was possible, except instead of Chittagong and Shenzhen there would be villages near Naples and towns near Pinsk. Since then, the world population has grown, and so has the wealth gap between rich and poor countries, but in order to cross an ocean a person can now sit on a plane for less than a day instead of crowding in a steerage hold for two weeks. You still haven't answered whether you want to return to the 1913 situation in 2013.

[mzflux.livejournal.com]

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/false-cause

This is getting boring rather quickly.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/michelle-chen/immigrant-scapegoating-no_b_1233008.html

[ygam.livejournal.com]

So you are refusing to answer my question. Instead, you are giving irrelevant links. This is what I suspected would happen. Tee-hee.

[mzflux.livejournal.com]

 

[ygam.livejournal.com]

One last time:

An American who lives in Seattle can find a job in Newark and move there. The U.S. government will not put any obstacles in front of him or say that he breaks any laws. However, if a Mexican who lives in Oaxaca finds a job in New Jersey and moves there without going through the regular immigration procedures, he will break the U.S. immigration laws. There is a possibility that the government will find out that he is an illegal immigrant, and deport him back to Mexico. This is the case in 2013; in 1913, an Italian could go from a village in Campania to Lower Manhattan without much trouble, but times have changed. These laws, however, are enforced inconsistently. There are millions of illegal immigrants in the United States, mostly from Mexico but in fact from all over the world, whom no one deports. The protesters want these laws to be enforced consistently. As I understand it, you have a problem with it. So I am asking you, do you want the laws restricting immigration to be repealed? Do you want it to be as easy to move from Oaxaca to New Jersey as it is to move from Washington State to New Jersey, or as easy as it was to go from an Italian village to Little Italy in New York in 1913? I've asked you several times, but all I got instead of an answer were irrelevant links and a cute facepalm userpic.

Can you answer "Yes, I want the borders of the United States to be open, permitting everybody from all over the world to come here" or "I want the laws to stay the way they are, but continue to be enforced inconsistently" or "I want the laws to change in such-and-such a way"? You seem to have contempt for the protesters, but do not tell us, how your proposal is different from theirs.

[mzflux.livejournal.com]

http://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/black-or-white

Irrelevant links!! Answer my question!!! Tell me in great detail here and now exactly how you would personally restructure your country's immigration policies otherwise you are avoiding my question and must submit to either one of the two false premises I have presented!!!

[ygam.livejournal.com]

So you do not have an opinion, what the U.S. immigration laws should be. It appears that you have not given this matter a thought. Yet you have contempt for people (the anti-illegal immigration protesters) who do have such an opinion. Instead of attacking their ideas, which you cannot do because you have not formulated a competing idea, you are attacking them personally: oldthinkers unbellyfeel Ingsoc... er, they do not understand that the United States have been founded on unjust privilege.

I have a piece of advice for you: do not let moral posturing replace thinking. I understand that this runs contrary to everything taught in American schools and colleges (which I know firsthand, for unlike the commenter with Brezhnev on his user picture, I have graduated from an American university 17 years ago), but this is a lesson I've learned from the university of life.

[mzflux.livejournal.com]

[ygam.livejournal.com]

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

do not let moral posturing replace thinking. I understand that this runs contrary to everything taught in American schools and colleges

Oh the irony....

[ygam.livejournal.com]

Am I wrong? What is more prevalent in American schools and colleges: teaching critical thinking, or politically correct indoctrination? My impression that the latter is more prevalent. I went to college in the U.S. in 1991-1993, and my brother and my stepson went to high school here; I base my opinion on my own education as well as theirs.

[yes-justice.livejournal.com]

Yes. You are wrong.

Where did you learn to make blanket assertions and attribute your own subjective experience onto an entire country of over 300 million people?


What is more prevalent in American schools and colleges: teaching critical thinking, or politically correct indoctrination? My impression that the latter is more prevalent.

Well, that is subjective and also not what you just asserted. You wrongly asserted American schools teach the suppression of critical thinking in favor of indoctrination. You cite this without reasonable evidence, and then cite some vague impression you have of three people.

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