(no subject)

[merig00.livejournal.com]

Comments

[yelena-r0ssini.livejournal.com]

OK, I have been a member of this community for barely a week, if that, and even I want you to quit it.

Plus, way to assume that all liberals are pro-Hamas, stupid cartoonist. I am very much a Zionist myself, though quite open to criticizing Israel's actions when they merit criticism.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

It's not being pro-Hamas, it's being anti-Israel.

Some, if not most people in this community don't see a reason or right for Israel as a jewish state to exist in that region in the first place.

[mcpreacher.livejournal.com]

yes i can't imagine why anyone wouldn't support an ethnically apartheid state

[merig00.livejournal.com]

and what citizens or residents of Israel are being under apartheid?

[yelena-r0ssini.livejournal.com]

And there's where I land somewhere between you and merig00 - I believe it's perfectly possible to be critical of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians without it leading to the conclusion that Israel as a nation has no right to exist.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

Ooh I see a lot of problem with the way Israel treats palestinian but I don't consider it to be on the level of apartheid, ethnical cleansing or terrorism.

[yelena-r0ssini.livejournal.com]

The apartheid argument isn't entirely invalid - it's hard to straight-facedly deny that Israel's Palestinian population are treated as second-class citizens. The real problem is that everywhere else they've tried to go, they've been treated as third-class citizens by nations which they thought would welcome them.

[mcpreacher.livejournal.com]

i didn't conclude that israel doesn't have the right to exist, merely that palestinians do.

i don't know why every israel argument is framed in terms of "right to exist" as though i'm trying to ceremoniously wish away the other side. merig and i theoretically both believe in a two-state solution, the primary difference between us is that he doesn't care how it happens.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

i don't know why every israel argument is framed in terms of "right to exist"
Mostly because some countries and 3 out 4 major fractions in palestine do not recognize Israel.

I do care... it's just taht I see only two ways how it could happen:

1)Israel unilaterally pulls out of West Bank and lifts blockade of Gaza. Palestinians still don't recognize Israel. They take it as their win and increase the number of attacks. Israel retaliates and we are back to square one.

2. Arab nations and palestinians recognize the State of Israel. They work out the exact borders in 1968 position. Everyone lives happily ever after or at least they pretend so.

Which one is more realistic to you? Do you have any your own view?

[yelena-r0ssini.livejournal.com]

My apologies, I was confused by your phrasing when it came to "not supporting" Israel. I guess you meant not supporting their actions rather than not supporting their right to their state. My bad for misreading.

But part of the reason Israel arguments get framed that way is the fact that there has been opposition to their existence as a state since day one. There are still many nations who refuse to "recognize" Israel as an actual country, and the idea that they have no right to exist isn't totally fringe or laughable.

[madscience.livejournal.com]

You're right – the idea of Israel existing as a Jewish state is completely repugnant. It's as bad as saying blacks should go back to Africa. You constantly imply that opposing Israel's policy of terrorism against Palestinians is anti-Semitic, but ironically, you've demonstrated that you are the racist.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

No I'm questioning peoples logic behind it - Chinese have chinese state, french have their state, russians have their state, british - have their state and so on. However jews having their state is somehow racist.

[madscience.livejournal.com]

China is waging a cultural war against Tibet, and we oppose that as well. China has committed some human rights violations in response to protests in Tibet, but at least they aren't indiscriminately firebombing Tibetan schools. As for the French, the Russians, and the British, the obvious difference is that those are nationalities, not races, and those nations don't practice anything like Israel's racist oppression of the native people of the artificial Jewish homeland.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

so jews are now not only a nationality and a religion but also a race? Maybe even all separate specie all together?

[yelena-r0ssini.livejournal.com]

Out of curiosity, are you opposed to Christian and Muslim nation-states as well?

[madscience.livejournal.com]

Yes. Religion has no place in any government.

[yelena-r0ssini.livejournal.com]

Well, I respect your consistency even if I disagree with the premise. But I still don't think it's the presence of an established religion that's the problem so much as how the majority religion/ethnic group treats the minority/ies. And in that regard Israel, like so many other nations, certainly does fall short.

[mikepictor.livejournal.com]

How about Palestine? They got the same right at all? The right to self governance, the right to their own international diplomacy, the right to pursue trade with other nations, the right to form and maintain a standing military, the right to guard their own borders...

Just as much so as Israel, correct?

[merig00.livejournal.com]

yeap and they've refused to accept those rights and responsibilities many times going back to 1948

[i.livejournal.com]

seems to me that it is palestine which has been repeatedly invaded and occupied since 1948. nobody has ever taken land from israel, only the other way around.

[merig00.livejournal.com]

No Israel has been repeatedly invaded since 1948.
Palestine was invaded and occupied only twice: Jordan and Egypt from 1948 through 1968 and Israel 1968-2005(Gaza) and 1968-present(West Bank)

[yelena-r0ssini.livejournal.com]

Yes, they do. Which is why a two-state solution is really the only answer. It's a shame we have such a hard time getting to that solution, but it's not like Hamas is making diplomacy easy either...

[mikepictor.livejournal.com]

Quite correct, both sides are making things worse and worse, both feel quite certain their position is the sensible and justified one, and their world turns to rubble as a result.

[david-deacon.livejournal.com]

See my comment below. You're welcome.

[david-deacon.livejournal.com]

Also, by the way, as someone who's heard your "criticism of Israel makes you an anti-Semite" rhetoric at close range in the past, I just want to say that if you read more articles like this one (http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1124928.html?), you'd come across as better informed, with a more-balanced opinion, and less of a shrill, AIPAC-touting hack.